When a Waltz Is Not a Waltz: Penalties/Changes

dorispulaski · Oct 13, 2015

An interesting discussion on the wrong rhythm penalties that might be imposed on several of the ice dance teams due to their waltzes not having either the correct 3/4 time or a constant (and correct) number of beats per minute broke out in the Program announcements thread.

Now that it has transpired that both Chock & Bates and Weaver & Poje have changed their SD programs to use more traditional waltzes, I thought it might be a good idea to give the discussion more prominence as a thread in The Edge, to discuss why those changes were made.

lauravvv · Oct 14, 2015

Papadakis/Cizeron

SD: 'Charms' from the movie 'W.E.'
FD: 'Rain in your black eyes' by Ezio Bosso and 'To build a home' by The Cinematic Orchestra

Thanks to Ka3sha from the FSUniverse. According to her/him, the source is the Pirouette magazine, but she/he found the information on a russian forum.

Edit: Oh, just saw that this was already posted at the P/C's fan thread. I hope that it's still okay that I brought the information here.

Barb · Oct 14, 2015

lauravvv said:
Papadakis/Cizeron

SD: 'Charms' from the movie 'W.E.'
FD: 'Rain in your black eyes' by Ezio Bosso and 'To build a home' by The Cinematic Orchestra

Thanks to Ka3sha from the FSUniverse. According to her/him, the source is the Pirouette magazine, but she/he found the information on a russian forum.

Edit: Oh, just saw that this was already posted at the P/C's fan thread. I hope that it's still okay that I brought the information here.

Beautiful!

caitie · Oct 15, 2015

It's going to be interesting to see them do the Ravensburger to Charms... I love that music but it doesn't seem to fit very well.

Astrid56 · Oct 15, 2015

caitie said:
It's going to be interesting to see them do the Ravensburger to Charms... I love that music but it doesn't seem to fit very well.

You'll be surprised it is actually a good piece to do that Waltz. It will be less frenetic or frenzied and allows more fluid ... flowing movement.

chameleon · Oct 15, 2015

While I appreciate the creativity this season, several of the teams, including P/C apparently, are skating their RW to music that isn't 3/4 time. While I assume D/L and their specialists know the rules enough to not get a deduction, I feel it must be easier to time your pattern of you have the appropriate beat to time it to.

Snow63 · Oct 15, 2015

chameleon said:
While I appreciate the creativity this season, several of the teams, including P/C apparently, are skating their RW to music that isn't 3/4 time. While I assume D/L and their specialists know the rules enough to not get a deduction, I feel it must be easier to time your pattern of you have the appropriate beat to time it to.

100% agree. This music is not a waltz.

tulosai · Oct 15, 2015

chameleon said:
While I appreciate the creativity this season, several of the teams, including P/C apparently, are skating their RW to music that isn't 3/4 time. While I assume D/L and their specialists know the rules enough to not get a deduction, I feel it must be easier to time your pattern of you have the appropriate beat to time it to.

I also agree. I honestly don't know how they will make a waltz work to this music, I'm sorry, though the music is beautiful.

Barb · Oct 15, 2015

I have not knowledge in music but for musicians or people with studies in music is not clear what is a RW rhytm? why some people say it is a waltz and other people are saying it is not.? I thought it would be clear.

chameleon · Oct 15, 2015

The Ravensburger Waltz rhythm is supposed to be a very fast waltz, 198 beats per minute in 3/4 time. Teams seem to mostly be adhering to the tempo requirement, but we're getting all sorts of rhythms for the SD, 6/8, 12/8, 4/4, etc. Again, I'm no professional tech specialist and presumably all these top level coaches know the rules well enough to not get a music deduction. But it's much easier to keep your timing when your music is the prescribed rhythm. You can waltz to music that isn't in 3/4 time, but to do the steps to the appropriate beat requires a lot more concentration and things tend to seem slightly off anyway.

uhh · Oct 16, 2015

Astrid56 said:
You'll be surprised it is actually a good piece to do that Waltz. It will be less frenetic or frenzied and allows more fluid ... flowing movement.

It's not in 3/4 time, so straight up it's no good for a waltz.

uhh · Oct 16, 2015

The technical handbook says the following:

The Pattern Dance Elements must be skated on the Waltz Rhythm, in any Waltz style. The Tempo
of the music throughout the Pattern Dance Element must be constant and in accordance with the
required Tempo of the Pattern Dance Ravensburger Waltz, i.e. 66 measures of three beats or 198
beats per minute, plus or minus 3 beats per minute.

and the ISU document for the RW says

Music: -Waltz 3/4

So I can't understand why so many teams are risking breaking these rules with their music choice - they could get deductions for the wrong music, they could end up getting timing calls on all the key points because it's much harder to keep the right rhythm if they don't have music actually in 3/4. I've tried & tried to listen to Charms and count the correct beat, and the only way it works is if P/C are using that for a foxtrot section, and there's another piece not yet reported that they are using for the waltz.

blancanieves · Oct 16, 2015

uhh said:
The technical handbook says the following:

The Pattern Dance Elements must be skated on the Waltz Rhythm, in any Waltz style. The Tempo
of the music throughout the Pattern Dance Element must be constant and in accordance with the
required Tempo of the Pattern Dance Ravensburger Waltz, i.e. 66 measures of three beats or 198
beats per minute, plus or minus 3 beats per minute.

and the ISU document for the RW says

Music: -Waltz 3/4

So I can't understand why so many teams are risking breaking these rules with their music choice - they could get deductions for the wrong music, they could end up getting timing calls on all the key points because it's much harder to keep the right rhythm if they don't have music actually in 3/4. I've tried & tried to listen to Charms and count the correct beat, and the only way it works is if P/C are using that for a foxtrot section, and there's another piece not yet reported that they are using for the waltz.

Well, I know two things. Competitors/coaches/federations are hyper aware of the importance of avoiding deductions. The tempo of any piece of recorded music can be electronically manipulated (sped up, slowed down) when cutting skating music. There's been plenty of examples throughout ISU competitions.

Ice Dance · Oct 18, 2015

blancanieves said:
There's been plenty of examples throughout ISU competitions.

True. One would think P&C's coaches must have dotted their i's & crossed their t's before choosing music for their reigning world champions.

OTOH, there have also been plenty of examples of dance teams being "encouraged" to change their SD music in order to better fit the style of the pattern dance. P&C's countrymen, Pechalat & Bourzat, during the Olympic season being the most recent team that springs to mind. There have also--disturbingly--been cases where athletes have not only successfully debuted programs internationally but skated full seasons, including 4CCs and Europeans, and then arrived at Worlds and/or the Olympics to receive music deductions. "Do your homework" is a an extremely wise mantra.

dorispulaski · Oct 18, 2015

The first team I recall getting slammed by a wrong music deduction was Rahkamo and Kokko in 1991-1992. They were told their sailor and bar girl polka was not a polka, it was a hoedown, at Skate America. They scrapped it and did a Lapland polka for the rest of the season.

There are only scraps of video of the offending program on youtube, but the costumes are memorialized in the page for Finlandia Trophy
http://www.finlandiatrophy.com/

Check out the small picture over "schedule"

Weathergal · Oct 18, 2015

dorispulaski said:
The first team I recall getting slammed by a wrong music deduction was Rahkamo and Kokko in 1991-1992. They were told their sailor and bar girl polka was not a polka, it was a hoedown, at Skate America. They scrapped it and did a Lapland polka for the rest of the season.

There are only scraps of video of the offending program on youtube, but the costumes are memorialized in the page for Finlandia Trophy
http://www.finlandiatrophy.com/

Check out the small picture over "schedule"

Now that is some cool trivia! :agree:

blancanieves · Oct 18, 2015

Ice Dance said:
True. One would think P&C's coaches must have dotted their i's & crossed their t's before choosing music for their reigning world champions.

OTOH, there have also been plenty of examples of dance teams being "encouraged" to change their SD music in order to better fit the style of the pattern dance. P&C's countrymen, Pechalat & Bourzat, during the Olympic season being the most recent team that springs to mind. There have also--disturbingly--been cases where athletes have not only successfully debuted programs internationally but skated full seasons, including 4CCs and Europeans, and then arrived at Worlds and/or the Olympics to receive music deductions. "Do your homework" is a an extremely wise mantra.

My point isn't to prove that there have never been music deductions in the history of ice dance. My point is that it's likely that the professionals behind competing teams have at least as much awareness and knowledge as fans posting on skating forums.

Also, perhaps it isn't generally wise to pass judgment on a music cut that has not been heard yet.

Ice Dance · Oct 18, 2015

blancanieves said:
Also, perhaps it isn't generally wise to pass judgment on a music cut that has not been heard yet.

No, of course not. And I agree with your point. I think it's ALWAYS best to wait & see the program before leaping to conclusions. Some of the BEST programs are always complete surprises to me. And some of my least favorite SDs this season are programs other people love. (G&P and I&Z).

I will, however, add my own point as well, which is that it is OK to express concern. Everyone prefers to have a "heads-up" in advance. One of my concerns for any injured team is that they end up a bit behind their fellow competitors when it comes to receiving feedback. And, of course, home grown feedback tends to be in one's corner. It's usually not someone from the same country who makes a formal complaint against a music selection.

beebee51 · Oct 19, 2015

Since the music deduction is based on a majority of judges concluding the timing is off, it can vary from comp to comp. It's not as simple as coaches crossing t's and dotting i's--quite subjective. I would think it's up to the skaters and their coaches to decide whether the risk of a one (maybe two?) point deduction is wortth it.

dorispulaski · Oct 20, 2015

Is it more than 2 points, because the deduction requires mandatory deductions on all Pattern Dance sequences, and generally affects the timing and interpretation PCS grade as well.

When a Waltz Is Not a Waltz: Penalties/Changes

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

lauravvv

Barb

caitie

Astrid56

chameleon

Snow63

Pray one day we'll open our eyes.

tulosai

Barb

chameleon

uhh

uhh

blancanieves

Ice Dance

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

Weathergal

blancanieves

Ice Dance

beebee51

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

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