2016 Skate Canada Ladies FP

[TMC]

Well I just woke up and came in here to read about the Women's final and it appears y'all are having dessert.

(quietly backs out of thread)

 

[ks777]

The judges are doing nothing different. Satoko is still gettting +1 and +2 GOEs for her 3Lz-3T with a horrendously prerotated 3T while tech panel blithely ignores prerotations.

However, if Satoko Miyahara is the president of the Prerotated Toeloop Club, then I have no doubt Evgenia Medvedeva must take the vice president seat. Please take a look at the slo-mo gifs I made:


3F-3T in the SP (+1.4 GOE; judges gave +2s across the board)
https://imgflip.com/gif/1d7sw6

3S-3T in the FS (+0.4 GOE; only one judge gave negative GOE)
https://imgflip.com/gif/1d7tbf

How are these GOEs defensible when she can barely get two revolutions in the air?

I'm glad you're so happy with the judging. :noshake:

I don't think it's called pre-rotation. It's more to do with their jump techniques. But her 3toe on 3S-3T is badly underrotated. It's not even close. should have been <<.

 

[rain]

Well, Osmond placed 11th last year, not because the judges held her down but because she fell multiple times and the judges still tried to prop her up with 55.67 in PCS. No one should be getting PCS that high with 5 falls. She was fine and deserved to podium here, but not with those scores. Her SP was not flawless and that slip after the 3f-3t should have been reflected in the PCS - it was an obvious slip. Neither was Osmond lights out in the FS - she under rotated and fell on the 3l and had a distracting turn out and doubled the 3t. Yet, she scored 130+ for that. I am a Canadian and I like to see our skaters do well. Osmond has potential, but the judges are doing her a disservice for placing her on this pedestal.

In contrast, I thought Chartrand was vastly underscored. It sends a bad message to all those other skaters in Canada who hope to be marked fairly and have a legitimate shot at one of those few spots for Worlds and Olympics.

Oh, so many things to address. For the life of me I don't understand how you can complain about overscoring when someone finished 11th. How about if she scored 0, would that finally satisfy you?

Her short program here was electric and stunning with exceptionally well executed technical content. Her tiny balance correction doesn't, per the rules, actually have to reflect anywhere on the score sheets. Where would you suggest she get dinged for that exactly? And how many points do you truly think that's worth?

Obviously she wasn't lights-out in the free skate, but I think you're trying to make it sound like a disaster when it was anything but. The most glaring error was on the triple loop, for which she was justly penalized. But you don't actually lose any points for doubling a triple, you just don't gain as many. It's not actually an "error" by the rulebook. It's just technical content that's not as difficult and not worth as many points as other technical content.

Considering the fact that Osmond didn't even make the world team last year I don't see how you can justly argue that she's been favoured and put on a pedestal.

And Chartrand was not underscored, vastly or otherwise. She skated pretty well here in the LP, but fell victim to the same problem that plagues her in most of her competitions — towards the end of the program she got tentative and likely tired and began to two-foot and underrotate her jumps. This is what has held her back for years. If she could address this problem she would be more of a challenger on a regular basis, as she's a lovely skater artistically with good programs and gorgeous jumps when she doesn't do the aforementioned. Considering that many ladies here got dinged for under-rotating it was clearly something the caller was particularly looking for.

 

[Osmond4gold]

Well, Osmond placed 11th last year, not because the judges held her down but because she fell multiple times and the judges still tried to prop her up with 55.67 in PCS. No one should be getting PCS that high with 5 falls. She was fine and deserved to podium here, but not with those scores. Her SP was not flawless and that slip after the 3f-3t should have been reflected in the PCS - it was an obvious slip. Neither was Osmond lights out in the FS - she under rotated and fell on the 3l and had a distracting turn out and doubled the 3t. Yet, she scored 130+ for that. I am a Canadian and I like to see our skaters do well. Osmond has potential, but the judges are doing her a disservice for placing her on this pedestal.

In contrast, I thought Chartrand was vastly underscored.

Your criticism of judges scores for Kaetlyn, is well documented on the forum, artsciboy. In respects to SC 2016, if others skated as clean or cleaner, they would be awarded accordingly. Alaine's SP was her undoing...a 62 and change, is not enough to compete at this level, with 2 world champions and a world silver medalist in the mix. If anything, Alaine seemed very pleased of her SP score, given it could have easily been much lower. In the LP she lost points due to UR's. If she could lay down 2 back to back programs, as she did at nationals last year, or come close to it (as Kaetlyn did at SC) I have no doubt, she would podium.

Until then, kind of lame to criticize others successes, when your favs don't skate to their potential. For the record, I had Alaine as finishing 3rd here in my predictions - too bad for both of us.

 

[Alexz]

Katerina Witt was skating to something that she experienced, "her joy" in Sarajevo, and the horrors that occurred there post her Olympic experience. As an earlier poster mentioned, Evgenia is skating to something she has no recollection of, and using sound bites that haunt our collective memories, still. For me,... too much, too fresh, too contrived!

I don't blame the child, I blame the team around her who thought it okay to go over the top. I hope there was some learning here and constructive feedback given that helps with program changes that need to occur.

I don't want to state my opinion over and over again. But let me just mention that lovely Kaetlyn Osmond NEVER BEEN TO PARIS. She said that herself. Yet we have no problem of her skating to Edit Piaf's burlesque street strolling song about Paris and how it feels walking through streets of magnificent Paris. Should French now be offended of her "improper interpretation" of the famous Paris's charm and it's unique city vibe? Don't be silly, unless you really want to. It's a free world and art really has no limits.

We can discuss how successful or good the particular art piece is, but its whole another story. If Averbukh's sneaky intension was to attract even more attention, I say he reached his goal. I have no clue about choreographers about the most of the programs this year, but I bet right now most people are aware about Averbukh as a choreographer because of this Medvedeva's program of his. I'm sure there is no GS forumer here who did not learn his name and his previous programs by now. At least you still are taking about him and know how to spell his name. Because he made you, did not he...

 

[Max2skating]

I really like Osmond SP, but I think her FP was very very overscored

 

[sowcow]

It's not that she is not allowed to use it, it is that the program is poorly thought out and the real-life sounds used during the step sequence push it into offensive territory (an easy fix that Averbukh nevertheless refuses to make, I wonder why...). I don't intend to reiterate all the points that have been made in criticizing this program, as there have been many and most of them are valid. What I wanted to point out is that dismissing all such criticism is counterproductive and shuts off discussion.

Another thing: there are two sides to a program , the concept and the execution/choreography. When the concept concerns a controversial/sensitive subject, you'd better make sure that there are no missteps in the execution, because you are already walking a very thin line. Otherwise the program falls flat or worse, risks becoming insulting instead of respectful and poignant. Averbukh's program is the latest example, but for instance I had many of the same issues with Guignard/Fabbri's FD to Schindler's List from last year.

For me, the case that comes to mind of a program that ended up being "insulting, instead of respectful and poignant" was during the 2010 Olympic Season:

Oksana DOMNINA & Maxim SHABALIN (RUS) - 2010 Olympic Season - Original Dance (OD)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtXWE1CfbcM

« Indigenous Australian elders have expressed outrage at an "Aboriginal dance" routine by Russian ice dancers at the European figure skating championships in Estonia.

The Russian world champions, who wore dark-skin bodysuits adorned with leaves and white body paint markings, said they were surprised to learn that they had been accused of causing serious cultural offense. »
​

Judge for yourself if you think DOMNINA and SHABALIN's SD routine and costuming were 'culturally offensive':

Australian Aboriginal dance (with dancers in authentic dress / costume)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o221noLANYw

 

[[email protected]]

I renew my earlier argument that it doesn't feel right to spot her 2-3 falls in pts over her competitors.

I don't agree because you said "competitors". It's a common agreement among many here that had Gracie been clean in Boston she would have won it. She would be more or less at par in FP and she had SP advantage. Then Mao scored 215 in Saitama. If she can bring back her 2014 form then she does not need Medvedeva to fall 2-3 times to be competitive with her. And we all know that reputation is built and lost same as the scores. Liza had a disastrous SP at last year SC and she still managed to score overall more than here with 2 more or less clean skates. She had almost 65 pcs then and only 61 now although she skates now with some more confidence. I see no other explanation that she was the reining WC back then. And after that she was steadily losing her reputation. Everyone at least claims he is for the total objectivity so that each competition is like the first competition without any prior history. But we all know this does not work like that in FS. Someone else (but Satoko) should show that she can be as consistent as Medvedeva - the scores will come.

 

[Nathan13]

Someone else (but Satoko) should show that she can be as consistent as Medvedeva - the scores will come.

If only someone could, but I doubt that in this field anyone could be :noshake: Evgenia is so rare in that regard. It's not just the elements that are there, its the interpretation. Every performance is as strong as the last.

 

[sowcow]

As for Wagner, when you think about how much Osmond was over-scored this week for her output, "gifted" is the farthest thing from my mind. Wagner's content was comparable to Osmond's and yet she scored below 70 and 130 in the SP and LP last week. There was no over-scoring in the circumstances.

I have to disagree with you on this last point. I don't think Wagner's content was 'comparable' to Osmond's when one considers the GOE for each element. For example, in my view...

• Osmond's jumps were bigger & faster, and (most) had a comparatively stronger and more controlled running edge on the landing;
• In terms of 'transitions' for jumps and spins:
  • Osmond demonstrated a greater overall number of transitions (especially 'exit' transitions), and
  • Osmond's transitions were generally more difficult as compared to Wagner's (for both spins & jumps)

Just my opinion of course... :agree:

 

[Skater Boy]

Well, Osmond placed 11th last year, not because the judges held her down but because she fell multiple times and the judges still tried to prop her up with 55.67 in PCS. No one should be getting PCS that high with 5 falls. She was fine and deserved to podium here, but not with those scores. Her SP was not flawless and that slip after the 3f-3t should have been reflected in the PCS - it was an obvious slip. Neither was Osmond lights out in the FS - she under rotated and fell on the 3l and had a distracting turn out and doubled the 3t. Yet, she scored 130+ for that. I am a Canadian and I like to see our skaters do well. Osmond has potential, but the judges are doing her a disservice for placing her on this pedestal.

In contrast, I thought Chartrand was vastly underscored. It sends a bad message to all those other skaters in Canada who hope to be marked fairly and have a legitimate shot at one of those few spots for Worlds and Olympics. Given how Osmond has been treated all these years (including her 70+ SP at National's this year, with only a 3f-2t, 3z(!) and a 2a), it must be hard to be a Canadian ladies figure skater and think they will have a fair shot to get on that team. The best they can hope for is for Osmond to implode and then the judges will have no choice but to put her behind. (Although, case in point, this past Nationals, those judges still tried their hardest to get her a top 2 spot - she finished overall with 197.87 versus Daleman who just slipped ahead of her with 197.99 - and Daleman landed 7 triples, while Osmond struggled).

As for Wagner, when you think about how much Osmond was over-scored this week for her output, "gifted" is the farthest thing from my mind. Wagner's content was comparable to Osmond's and yet she scored below 70 and 130 in the SP and LP last week. There was no over-scoring in the circumstances.

I don't think Ashley's short was comparable at all and Osmond has a natural shining personality whereas Ashley's is worked to the max. she has to put on the act and it is not as genuine as Osmond. Plus Osmond has more spiring in her jumps. I do like AShley's polish though but I t don't think we should knock the scores. You can't compare two different events besides Ashley has had enough gifting remember she got to go to the olympics. And it seems like people who are left off an olympic team ie Mirai and Sandu never really get it back together for whateer reason.

 

[artsciboy]

I don't think Ashley's short was comparable at all and Osmond has a natural shining personality whereas Ashley's is worked to the max. she has to put on the act and it is not as genuine as Osmond. Plus Osmond has more spiring in her jumps. I do like AShley's polish though but I t don't think we should knock the scores. You can't compare two different events besides Ashley has had enough gifting remember she got to go to the olympics. And it seems like people who are left off an olympic team ie Mirai and Sandu never really get it back together for whateer reason.

I was only comparing because Osmond4Gold brought up the comparison. As for Osmond having "natural shining" and Wagner having to put on an act, that's a matter of personal preference. Yes, Osmond has more spring in her jumps, but her technique is also wild and unsettling at times. As for gifting, well every skater has been gifted at some point in their careers - Osmond included. Lastly, it's not Wagner or anybody else's fault that skaters who are left off a team like Nagasu and Sandhu never get it back together. (And let's be real, in Nagasu's case, she was struggling for years leading up to 2014, so being bumped for Wagner can't be much of an excuse.)

 

[artsciboy]

Oh, so many things to address. For the life of me I don't understand how you can complain about overscoring when someone finished 11th. How about if she scored 0, would that finally satisfy you?

Her short program here was electric and stunning with exceptionally well executed technical content. Her tiny balance correction doesn't, per the rules, actually have to reflect anywhere on the score sheets. Where would you suggest she get dinged for that exactly? And how many points do you truly think that's worth?

Obviously she wasn't lights-out in the free skate, but I think you're trying to make it sound like a disaster when it was anything but. The most glaring error was on the triple loop, for which she was justly penalized. But you don't actually lose any points for doubling a triple, you just don't gain as many. It's not actually an "error" by the rulebook. It's just technical content that's not as difficult and not worth as many points as other technical content.

Considering the fact that Osmond didn't even make the world team last year I don't see how you can justly argue that she's been favoured and put on a pedestal.

And Chartrand was not underscored, vastly or otherwise. She skated pretty well here in the LP, but fell victim to the same problem that plagues her in most of her competitions — towards the end of the program she got tentative and likely tired and began to two-foot and underrotate her jumps. This is what has held her back for years. If she could address this problem she would be more of a challenger on a regular basis, as she's a lovely skater artistically with good programs and gorgeous jumps when she doesn't do the aforementioned. Considering that many ladies here got dinged for under-rotating it was clearly something the caller was particularly looking for.

Just because Osmond's PCS at 2015 Skate Canada didn't impact a podium placement doesn't mean that I can't opine on the fact that the scores were too high for what was put out there on the ice. In that case, judges should basically give scores of 0 to everyone they think shouldn't be on a podium.

Let me be clear, I like Osmond. I think, like Gracie Gold, she tends to get put on a pedestel even when her output doesn't merit such attention. For that, I blame the judges more than I do Osmond. She didn't make the World team last year, but like I pointed out, she was way too close given what she put out on the ice. That does show that she was favoured.

I was not trying to make Osmond's 2016 Skate Canada LP sound like a disaster. I was responding to the poster who said it was "lights out", when in fact it wasn't. I could have also harped on the shaky 3z with the questionable edge. And yes, that error on the 2a combination was distracting. She turned out of the 2axel. It was a good performance and it deserved to nab her a silver, but it was not 130+ worthy. In my opinion of course.

As for the stumble in the SP, it could have easily been addressed in the "Skating Skills" and "Performance" categories of PCS. It was obvious.

 

[Skater Boy]

I really really really wish people would stop whining about judging from different competitions. Yes, both Skate Canada and Skate America overmarked their hometown or homenation skaters. Surprise. Though when one considers that there are many judges maybe it is the fans motiviating such judging. yes, everyone sucks except your favourite skater. The rest are all overrated or overmarked or both. Yes, Kaetlyn and Evgenia should shot, tarred and feathered and forced to watch every single POTO or Carmen for 24 hours straight. Ditto for Patrick. I am not sure why certain skaters almost seem targetted or, alternatively certain skaters favoured - yes it is imho but for some reason Evgenia, Chan, and now Kaetlyn, Duhamel and Radford, Liza T, Rad are all targetted whereas others are picked as undermarked. I agree hanyu should win if he skates clean in the lp. I still don't get his sp - I don't think he gets it either but that's just me. If he skates clean it won't matter but when there is errors the fact that it is hard to see him relating to the music and the costume looking like it was a Johnny Weir designer clearance expensive fashion piece at 90percent off and because it is designer it must be good so I will wear it doesn't make it so. I think someone mentioned this before and I know it. That being said, different tastes for different folks the issue is did the skater perform and use the song well with good skating skills, transitions and performance quality. So you might hate country music or disco or or whatever but that shouldn't matter so much with the scoring. Now as for GOE's I am not sure like pcs we will or can ever agree. In the case of the ladies I don't think the results would have changed under or overmarked. Don't compare Skate Canada versus Skate America in respect to scores because you can't. They have different "measures" in that for example the best skating skills might get a 9.5 there yet itis agreed Hanyu and chan are better SS than say Rippon who got 9.25 but Chan only got 9.1 and Hanyu 8.75 at Skate Canada. Different event. I think actually though as performers and skaters Osmond and Ashley could be a great comparison. ashley has more confidence, experience and cachet as a world medallist and american champion. She is a fighter. Osmond is fierce and coming back with a vengeance. She has amazing jumps when on and her artistry is not as forced by far more organic than Ashley. Content wise if both on bother are similar. It is whether you like apples or orange or Carment or POTO. Both have their value and pros and cons.

 

[Osmond4gold]

I was only comparing because Osmond4Gold brought up the comparison. As for Osmond having "natural shining" and Wagner having to put on an act, that's a matter of personal preference. Yes, Osmond has more spring in her jumps, but her technique is also wild and unsettling at times. As for gifting, well every skater has been gifted at some point in their careers - Osmond included. Lastly, it's not Wagner or anybody else's fault that skaters who are left off a team like Nagasu and Sandhu never get it back together. (And let's be real, in Nagasu's case, she was struggling for years leading up to 2014, so being bumped for Wagner can't be much of an excuse.)

I did not bring it up, I was responding to another post which referenced both Osmond and Wagner's skates. Best to read before you write, as sometimes inner bias have a way of clouding reality.

 

[Skater Boy]

Just because Osmond's PCS at 2015 Skate Canada didn't impact a podium placement doesn't mean that I can't opine on the fact that the scores were too high for what was put out there on the ice. In that case, judges should basically give scores of 0 to everyone they think shouldn't be on a podium.

Let me be clear, I like Osmond. I think, like Gracie Gold, she tends to get put on a pedestel even when her output doesn't merit such attention. For that, I blame the judges more than I do Osmond. She didn't make the World team last year, but like I pointed out, she was way too close given what she put out on the ice. That does show that she was favoured.

I was not trying to make Osmond's 2016 Skate Canada LP sound like a disaster. I was responding to the poster who said it was "lights out", when in fact it wasn't. I could have also harped on the shaky 3z with the questionable edge. And yes, that error on the 2a combination was distracting. She turned out of the 2axel. It was a good performance and it deserved to nab her a silver, but it was not 130+ worthy. In my opinion of course.

As for the stumble in the SP, it could have easily been addressed in the "Skating Skills" and "Performance" categories of PCS. It was obvious.

Well in comparison to all the other skaters at Skate canada Osmond's marks were fine and that's what counts - in comparison to others. Some felt Liza was too high but not in comparison to say the disaster of Mirai - it was all proportionate.

I appreciate what you are saying about Gracie but I don't think you can compare her to Osmond. Yes, both have amazing jumps when on but Gracie has the powerful federation behind her and she has a lot more expectations on her than Osmond. Osmond has been injured for like two years and never the real threat or been healthy long enough to be a threat or make her mark. Gracie has led at worlds and big events. She is considered a world and olympic threat and with that reputation seems to get a bit of a push or a lot of push on marks. Osmond not so at least yet. Heck she isn't even sure of making the Canadian team wheras Gracie is considered much more a lock - (granted there may be issues about her being a head case and does she want to compete really but taking that away Gracie is a real medal threat unlike Kaetlyn).

I think when you compare the marks of say Osmond, Evgenia, Liza and Miyahara appreciating some really like Satoko and wanted her higher that it was fairly judged. Then again what is fair seems to be in the eye of the beholder

 

[jenaj]

Watched this on NBC today. How did Osmond score higher than Miyahara? And not just higher but a lot higher? And with a fall? She was so overscored on PCS. No wonder some people say it stands for People Cheat Still.

 

[Vladimir]

No, it's not underrotated. Of about 90 degrees of underrotation and even less. Although Evgenia's landing could be cleaner of course.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't think it's called pre-rotation. It's more to do with their jump techniques. But her 3toe on 3S-3T is badly underrotated. It's not even close. should have been <<.

No, it's not underrotated. Of about 90 degrees of underrotation and even less. Although Evgenia's landing could be cleaner of course.

 

[yuki]

Does this feel exploitative? I don't know. I found the French team's 911 tribute in 02 to be exploitative.

Are you thinking of this program: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn72XujifZY ?

I think that if Evgenia sticks to conveying the emotion of the shock of sudden loss and chaos then this program can work. If she can hit the right emotional notes then maybe people can see it for what it is: Trying to contextualized the world view on to the personalized experience. But please take out the voice overs and sound effects.

Agreed.

For me, the case that comes to mind of a program that ended up being "insulting, instead of respectful and poignant" was during the 2010 Olympic Season:

Oksana DOMNINA & Maxim SHABALIN (RUS) - 2010 Olympic Season - Original Dance (OD)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtXWE1CfbcM

Yes, I remember this one. Such a bad idea from the start and a clear example of criticism that should have been listened to.
In retrospect, the word I used (insulting) comes across as too harsh. Maybe "insensitive" would be a better and more appropriate term.

You said first that this is an FS forum. Maybe, I got whatever you're saying wrong. So what do you mean when you had to say this is an FS forum in relation to my first comment?

It was a misunderstanding on my part, I'm sorry about that.

 

[ancientpeas]

Yes. That might be it. I thought it was the French team. The mind begins to haze over time. Thank you for the clarification/correction. Accuracy is our friend.