2023 Grand Prix de France Men's Free Skate

[CrazyKittenLady]

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My final contribution to this thread...

 

[Ruthypegs]

from the Arizona desert the one and only president of the united states of cacti! (beautiful costume though)

I spotted Camden walking from one side of the stands to the other during the break between events yesterday - he was stopped every few yards by fans asking for selfies - he was unfailing gracious, polite, warm and friendly. As well as being a wonderful skater, he seems like a genuinely lovely person.

 

[Ruthypegs]

I feel bad for Camden that he didn't medal when he got 5th in the worlds one year... that is probably and unfortunately be the highlight of his career.

Aw don't say that - he is such a fabulous skater, and still young.

 

[el henry]

@Ruthypegs I had forgotten that you were attending this comp! What a wonderful men's comp to see live.

Please let us know anything you care to share from your rinkside views.

 

[4everchan]

Aw don't say that - he is such a fabulous skater, and still young.

You are right of course ! I hope the best for him. He is a very nice skater. I have been following him since junior days when my sons Jo and Conrad were competing with him and always appreciated his beautiful smooth skating.

 

[Cilla70]

I am from the USA and it embarrasses me every time they score him so high in PCS. People said Nathan was over scored in PCS, but not at this level. At least he did not have falls or major errors when scored high.

 

[Lutzedge]

I am from the USA and it embarrasses me every time they score him so high in PCS. People said Nathan was over scored in PCS, but not at this level. At least he did not have falls or major errors when scored high.

If your talking about Ilia, he didn't have major errors. He had a fall that he quickly got up on and back in the program on an element that only costs around 3-4 points. Falling on a quad is more major and would cost around 10 points. He also didn't have major errors in the Free.

For PCS, skaters like Jason Brown would have no quads and maybe an error and he'd break 90 in PCS. Yuzuru was the same, although he had difficulty. In Women's, Anna or Kaori for example may fall and struggle and still break 70 in PCS. Ilia was scoring in the 70s in PCS in his first Senior season, while someone like Yuma was high and mid 80s. Vincent Zhou also got the low PCS treatment early on. So judges gives all sorts of mixed scores in the PCS category. But Ilia is not getting scored like never seen before.

 

[Vicky458]

Judge 4 gave Yuma 7.75 for Presentation and Ilia 9. I'm really not sure about these judges....

There is no way that Ilia deserves a 9 in Presentation! He just skates from jump to jump…no transition, no interpretation to the music, no composition, and no presentation… he could skate that same program to any music it wouldn’t matter!

 

[Ruthypegs]

@Ruthypegs I had forgotten that you were attending this comp! What a wonderful men's comp to see live.

Please let us know anything you care to share from your rinkside views.

What I really like about going to live events is seeing a skater/skaters in a new light, and/or seeing skaters who are new to me. I'll jot down some random thoughts here:
Men:
Yuma - his performance/expression are so much better. He landed a 3A right next to me with no sound at all. His FS costume is really beautiful - a gorgeous inky blue velvet.

Landry Le May - I'd noticed him in a couple of events previously, but hadn't seen him at a live event, so I was really pleased he got one of the host picks. He has something special - great lines/elegance/precision and nerves of steel. I think he will have a breakthrough season very soon.

Kataise - a new skater to me - very nice skating.

Women - I missed most of the short and the free but:
Isabeau - I've seen her in person once before, and she astounded me again with her sublime skating. She looked quite shaky in the free.

Pairs:
Lia and Trennt - great unison and their skating just had an extra something - they deserved to win. The top Italians were lovely but their skating was missing something this time. The 2nd and 3rd French teams have bags of potential.

Ice Dance:
Dupayage and Nabais - ones to watch out for in the future - Thomas is especially good.

Arnaud Caffa

 

[yelyoh]

There is no way that Ilia deserves a 9 in Presentation! He just skates from jump to jump…no transition, no interpretation to the music, no composition, and no presentation… he could skate that same program to any music it wouldn’t matter!

Not a 9 no but he is not just skating jump to jump as you write. There is choreo and interpretation going on not to mention a committment to the program. He is Kevin Aymoz? No. But he is not some dull jumping bean.

 

[16Olympics]

If you are talking about Gogo, I hope he figures out whether he really likes skating and competing. I can't tell, and I am not saying that to be snarky. If he is doing this as a default (I always skated, I don't know what to do if I'm not skating) that's not the best motivation.

I just want every skater, from 25th to first, to be there because they want to be there. If they are, then I am happy.

Yes, Gogo. I think he enjoys it when he's doing well but he is so sullen otherwise. Can't figure out his coaching situation. I see what it says but since he's moved to CA, I've seen 3+ coaches with him. Hoping he can get it figured out b/c there is not a lot of comps this year except Nationals, 4CC and Worlds if he wants to have a chance at 2026 he could start building now.

 

[discodisco]

If your talking about Ilia, he didn't have major errors. He had a fall that he quickly got up on and back in the program on an element that only costs around 3-4 points. Falling on a quad is more major and would cost around 10 points. He also didn't have major errors in the Free.

For PCS, skaters like Jason Brown would have no quads and maybe an error and he'd break 90 in PCS. Yuzuru was the same, although he had difficulty. In Women's, Anna or Kaori for example may fall and struggle and still break 70 in PCS. Ilia was scoring in the 70s in PCS in his first Senior season, while someone like Yuma was high and mid 80s. Vincent Zhou also got the low PCS treatment early on. So judges gives all sorts of mixed scores in the PCS category. But Ilia is not getting scored like never seen before.

Okay, but think about this. Let's say a skater spends time and effort like Jason brown, on an incredible program that showcases incredible skill on the blade and wonderful presentation. He is Far and Away Superior to a skater like Malinin, right? But do the PCS really reflect that? Say they both skate cleanly, what's the difference in PCS likely to be, two or three points? Maybe four or five at the absolute max? Is that fair? Are you saying that the difference between a Jason Brown program and an Ilya program is the value of an extra double axle or triple toe?

When the code of points system first started, they were much more stingy, or I would say, fair and realistic, when it came to pcs. Not everybody and their dog was getting eight sent nines. In fact you'd have top skaters like Jeff Buttle coming away with sevens and eights. And you'd have a much bigger gap between skaters. Now it seems like if you land a whole bunch of quads you're guaranteed to get eights at least for PCs. Where's the incentive to work on skating skills, presentation and choreography when you know that you just need to throw in an extra jump and you've made up the difference?

Back under the 6.0 system, you would often see skaters with significantly different marks in the technical and presentation mark. You'd have Bonaly from France getting 5.9 for tech, and 5.3 for presentation. Plus, with the ordinal system, you could rank skaters according to their skills, so if nothing else, a skater could ranked according to their ability, and it might actually mean something if that put them two or three spots ahead of an inferior skater. Now don't get me wrong, obviously there were problems with the 6.0 system and a whole bunch of politicking. But I guess what I'm saying is that let's say Jason Brown is the best for pcs, and Ilia is 10th or 11th. Under the 6.0 system, that would show. It would significantly impact his placement. But under code of points, he could be the 11th highest PCS skater, and only be four points below Jason theoretically right? So in a sense, who even cares if the program is good and if the skater has more skill outside the jumps? Quota points really doesn't reward the artistic or skating skill components. There needs to be some way of calculating the points, such that they stretch out more, if that makes sense. So a skater who is in the nines like jason, actually benefits from his skills, and ends up 15 points ahead in PCS rather than just two.

 

[discodisco]

Not a 9 no but he is not just skating jump to jump as you write. There is choreo and interpretation going on not to mention a committment to the program. He is Kevin Aymoz? No. But he is not some dull jumping bean.

Agreed. I think he is very much overscored in PCS as well, but it would be mostly due to his skating skills, not necessarily to choreography or slacking difficult transitions. His program is well put together, and has strong choreography. He just doesn't have the movement or skating skills or deep knees and edges that someone like Jason Brown has. But his program is actually not too bad at all and he has certainly committed to the choreography. It just doesn't allow for a lot of nuance in terms of expression, but he's probably not mature enough for that yet, because he's still a kid and that's okay LOL

 

[discodisco]

Yes, Gogo. I think he enjoys it when he's doing well but he is so sullen otherwise. Can't figure out his coaching situation. I see what it says but since he's moved to CA, I've seen 3+ coaches with him. Hoping he can get it figured out b/c there is not a lot of comps this year except Nationals, 4CC and Worlds if he wants to have a chance at 2026 he could start building now.

I have felt the same. He never looks particularly into what he's doing and that is a bit scary to be honest. Remember the American who struggled and lost her triple axle and quad jumps that she had when she was 13 or so? She had a great skate at Worlds and won the bronze, and then promptly retired at an extremely young age, mostly due to the fact that she just really didn't like skating anymore. Steven gives the same impression.

 

[Lutzedge]

Okay, but think about this. Let's say a skater spends time and effort like Jason brown, on an incredible program that showcases incredible skill on the blade and wonderful presentation. He is Far and Away Superior to a skater like Malinin, right? But do the PCS really reflect that? Say they both skate cleanly, what's the difference in PCS likely to be, two or three points? Maybe four or five at the absolute max? Is that fair? Are you saying that the difference between a Jason Brown program and an Ilya program is the value of an extra double axle or triple toe?

When the code of points system first started, they were much more stingy, or I would say, fair and realistic, when it came to pcs. Not everybody and their dog was getting eight sent nines. In fact you'd have top skaters like Jeff Buttle coming away with sevens and eights. And you'd have a much bigger gap between skaters. Now it seems like if you land a whole bunch of quads you're guaranteed to get eights at least for PCs. Where's the incentive to work on skating skills, presentation and choreography when you know that you just need to throw in an extra jump and you've made up the difference?

Back under the 6.0 system, you would often see skaters with significantly different marks in the technical and presentation mark. You'd have Bonaly from France getting 5.9 for tech, and 5.3 for presentation. Plus, with the ordinal system, you could rank skaters according to their skills, so if nothing else, a skater could ranked according to their ability, and it might actually mean something if that put them two or three spots ahead of an inferior skater. Now don't get me wrong, obviously there were problems with the 6.0 system and a whole bunch of politicking. But I guess what I'm saying is that let's say Jason Brown is the best for pcs, and Ilia is 10th or 11th. Under the 6.0 system, that would show. It would significantly impact his placement. But under code of points, he could be the 11th highest PCS skater, and only be four points below Jason theoretically right? So in a sense, who even cares if the program is good and if the skater has more skill outside the jumps? Quota points really doesn't reward the artistic or skating skill components. There needs to be some way of calculating the points, such that they stretch out more, if that makes sense. So a skater who is in the nines like jason, actually benefits from his skills, and ends up 15 points ahead in PCS rather than just two.

If Jason and Ilia both skate perfectly, Jason should easily beat him in PCS. It should be around at least a 10 point separation. Ilia's improvement and maturity with his focus more this season on improving his PCS is where he goes from the 70s to the 80s in that category. IMO, currently Shoma, Jason, and Adam have the best PCS in Men's skating.

Looking at Ilia and Nathan, Ilia definitely wasn't as clean as Nathan, but they have some similarity in their PCS. Neither have the edges like Shoma or speed like Adam, and both skate more towards focusing on jumps and doing the choreography correctly with not much energy. Then at the Choreo sequence, Ilia and Nathan break out all of a sudden. (I'm talking Free Skate, not SP). Ilia is obviously not as developed as Nathan was in PCS, but they are kind of similar. I like Ilia's growth he is demonstrating and he is only 18, but Yuma and Adam are clearly stronger, although Yuma still doesn't show facial expression.

 

[4everchan]

I don't like the comparison Ilia Nathan. To me, Nathan always had better posture and better, smoother, more precise skating. Expression took a while fine, but there was a better care to skating overall.
Also, I'd be fine with low 8s for Ilia in PCS. I personally do not think he should be getting sixes etc... But when it goes up to 9, if some are suggesting that Jason Brown or Shoma should have a ten point gaps, then they need to get 10s. Are we going to start seeing judges throw 10s like candy because they overmarked someone? Not likely because the reality is that Ilia may most often skate at the end of events... So Jason and others will get a good 9.25 average or 9.5 and then... will judges be responsible and mark Ilia in the low 8 range or will they do like they did this weekend and still give him about the same PCS as Adam and Yuma?

Sometimes I feel that all this talk about improving his PCS is more talk than action. Again, I say this based on my live experience at ACI. The entire first 3 minutes were dull... and then when jumps were done, he started to get going. It was a long time to watch basic skating, get to the corner, and perform a jump, even if that jump was incredibly good.

I will leave this topic now. Ilia has so many qualities. I am not even complaining about him that much, but mostly about the judging.

 

[Lutzedge]

I don't like the comparison Ilia Nathan. To me, Nathan always had better posture and better, smoother, more precise skating. Expression took a while fine, but there was a better care to skating overall.
Also, I'd be fine with low 8s for Ilia in PCS. I personally do not think he should be getting sixes etc... But when it goes up to 9, if some are suggesting that Jason Brown or Shoma should have a ten point gaps, then they need to get 10s. Are we going to start seeing judges throw 10s like candy because they overmarked someone? Not likely because the reality is that Ilia may most often skate at the end of events... So Jason and others will get a good 9.25 average or 9.5 and then... will judges be responsible and mark Ilia in the low 8 range or will they do like they did this weekend and still give him about the same PCS as Adam and Yuma?

Sometimes I feel that all this talk about improving his PCS is more talk than action. Again, I say this based on my live experience at ACI. The entire first 3 minutes were dull... and then when jumps were done, he started to get going. It was a long time to watch basic skating, get to the corner, and perform a jump, even if that jump was incredibly good.

I will leave this topic now. Ilia has so many qualities. I am not even complaining about him that much, but mostly about the judging.

That sounds fair. Ilia should be in the 8s and not getting 6s, but not the 9s. Ilia has some way to go, which is fine, but yes, the judging is more of the problem.

 

[YuBluByMe]

Okay, but think about this. Let's say a skater spends time and effort like Jason brown, on an incredible program that showcases incredible skill on the blade and wonderful presentation. He is Far and Away Superior to a skater like Malinin, right? But do the PCS really reflect that? Say they both skate cleanly, what's the difference in PCS likely to be, two or three points? Maybe four or five at the absolute max? Is that fair?

No, it will be more than that. Do you know what the PCS difference between Ilia and Brown was at Worlds last season across both programs? It was 20.31 points. That’s not insignificant. Ilia wasn’t clean in the free skate, but I don’t think he topped 84 PCS last year in the free when clean, either. So far, Ilia’s PCS has increased by about 9 points across both programs. That’s still a 10+ advantage for Brown, but as demonstrated at Worlds, the gap really doesn’t matter. Ilia’s not going to win or lose due to his PCS because at the end of the day, the second mark only matters if the tech is close. It mattered here and Siao Him Fa rightfully won on the second mark.

When the code of points system first started, they were much more stingy, or I would say, fair and realistic, when it came to pcs. Now it seems like if you land a whole bunch of quads you're guaranteed to get eights at least for PCs. Where's the incentive to work on skating skills, presentation and choreography when you know that you just need to throw in an extra jump and you've made up the difference?

What’s wrong with throwing in an extra jump to make up the difference? I’m being serious. Jumps aren’t easy. If you have great quads, but have weaker skating skills, it’s an effective strategy to try to win by focusing on what you excel at. There’s more than one way to skin a cat. But the thing is, this strategy won’t work unless you DO put in work on non-jump elements.

Back under the 6.0 system, you would often see skaters with significantly different marks in the technical and presentation mark.

You still see this. Among the top skaters, TES is often 10-20 points higher than the PCS. There’s little difference among the marks across the PCS categories, however.

say Jason Brown is the best for pcs, and Ilia is 10th or 11th. Under the 6.0 system, that would show. It would significantly impact his placement. But under code of points, he could be the 11th highest PCS skater, and only be four points below Jason theoretically right?

Ilia was ranked 11th in PCS in the free at this past Worlds and there was almost 15 points between him and Brown in PCS in the free. Did it affect Ilia’s placement? No, TES did that. Because placement is more affected if you’re ranked the highest in PCS but 15th in technical.

There’s really no right answer on judging PCS because the problem is not the mark, but how it is scored. Judges have repeatedly proven they don’t have any home training so any changes will only result in more manipulation. And that’s the last thing I want.

 

[discodisco]

No, it will be more than that. Do you know what the PCS difference between Ilia and Brown was at Worlds last season across both programs? It was 20.31 points. That’s not insignificant. Ilia wasn’t clean in the free skate, but I don’t think he topped 84 PCS last year in the free when clean, either. So far, Ilia’s PCS has increased by about 9 points across both programs. That’s still a 10+ advantage for Brown, but as demonstrated at Worlds, the gap really doesn’t matter. Ilia’s not going to win or lose due to his PCS because at the end of the day, the second mark only matters if the tech is close. It mattered here and Siao Him Fa rightfully won on the second mark.



What’s wrong with throwing in an extra jump to make up the difference? I’m being serious. Jumps aren’t easy. If you have great quads, but have weaker skating skills, it’s an effective strategy to try to win by focusing on what you excel at. There’s more than one way to skin a cat. But the thing is, this strategy won’t work unless you DO put in work on non-jump elements.


You still see this. Among the top skaters, TES is often 10-20 points higher than the PCS. There’s little difference among the marks across the PCS categories, however.


Ilia was ranked 11th in PCS in the free at this past Worlds and there was almost 15 points between him and Brown in PCS in the free. Did it affect Ilia’s placement? No, TES did that. Because placement is more affected if you’re ranked the highest in PCS but 15th in technical.

There’s really no right answer on judging PCS because the problem is not the mark, but how it is scored. Judges have repeatedly proven they don’t have any home training so any changes will only result in more manipulation. And that’s the last thing I want.

Well, you called into question a lot of what I said in my original post, which I see from rereading was riddled with autocorrect from my speech to text lol. However, I appreciate that you went back and looked at the marks and provided a really great defense for what you're saying by basing it on facts, and not just a shoddy memory like mine