David Wilson on Sasha Cohen

[4everchan]

Ah, you'd rather trust the butchering to them. Wouldn't you do a better butchering job?

well there are 3 approaches

1) take a long piece... butcher it .... (how i feel about some Rachmaninoff concertos bad cuts or in this present case the Chopin ballade)
2) take shorter pieces involving less butchering (most chopin nocturne, preludes, etudes, waltzes etc here fit the bill)
3) take short sections and combine them properly (like in Patrick's Chopin...)

I think i would most likely try 2) or 3) most times. If i were to go with a 1), I would hope for a LP... at least 4 minutes is almost enough time to convey the emotion of the piece.

 

[Sydney Rose]

Well, as someone who professes to know a little something about Chopin (played piano for 10+ years, including a ton of Chopin), I have to tell you that the Ballade No. 1's main theme in G minor is definitely included in Hanyu's cut of the SP. In fact, his cut of the music begins with the main theme in G minor pretty much right off the bat after a truncated version of the parallel octaves intro, as seen here at around 46 seconds into the video: https://youtu.be/USLUuaw0ZDU?t=46s. Hanyu doesn't include all the various restatements of the main G minor theme, but the main theme in its initial form is 100% there.

I'm not a musician but I know what I like and I really, really like this program -- both the music and the skating. Beautiful and timeless.

 

[Dee4707]

Anyway, in my humble opinion the boys should leave Chopin to their betters:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RX7jmGXhBM

Wow Math, that was beautiful!! I don't think I've seen Mao's SP before so quite the treat for me.

 

[Mathman]

3) take short sections and combine them properly (like in Patrick's Chopin...)

It's all in the execution. It this performance Patrick looks like he is conducting the music with his body.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJhVbTgEepY

 

[Mathman]

Of Course it counts. I was in choir in H.S. But, in college I was a Dancer and Rifle Spinner in Cal State Northridge Marching Band. That's how I met Beatrisa Liang. Several members of our band came from Granada Hills H.S. and the campuses are very close to each other.

I want to see Bebe doing a rifle-spinning routine (on ice, of course)!

This will tickle you (since you mentioned that you had auditioned for the new Mickey Mouse Club). I once played in a dance band with Cubby O'Brien (Cubby played the drums). I never got to meet Annette, though.

(Now we will find out if anyone here is over 65 and knows who Cubby and Annette are. )

 

[merrywidow]

I'm 80 so I know who they are!

 

[mrrice]

I want to see Bebe doing a rifle-spinning routine (on ice, of course)!

This will tickle you (since you mentioned that you had auditioned for the new Mickey Mouse Club). I once played in a dance band with Cubby O'Brien (Cubby played the drums). I never got to meet Annette, though.

(Now we will find out if anyone here is over 65 and knows who Cubby and Annette are. )

OK....This comment made me smile.....I'm not over 65 but I did see Annette Funicello. She was at the final audition for The New Mickey Mouse Club (The 70's Version) I remember Jessica Simpson ( Who was cut at the final audition of the latest version ) talking about her final audition for the most recent cast. She talked about all the Men in suites and how quiet it was when she finished singing her number. That's exactly what it was like. Usually, you get some kind of applause when you finish your number but all we got was a thank you from the director and that's it. Very Scary!!

"Pop" beat me out for a spot in the club and I've held a grudge against him to this very day.....

Here's a Clip of the actual audition number. It's called "Showtime" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR_rOAdrT9w

 

[4everchan]

I'm not a musician but I know what I like and I really, really like this program -- both the music and the skating. Beautiful and timeless.

nobody is saying the skating is not good.
nobody is saying the program is badly choreographed.

The issue is that the essence of the piece is not there...it's like if you ordered a chocolate cake, and then getting a deliciously amazing vanilla cake... if the latter is still good, it isn't what was expected....

It's all in the execution. It this performance Patrick looks like he is conducting the music with his body.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJhVbTgEepY

I am not sure what you mean here...care to explain ?

 

[mrrice]

nobody is saying the skating is not good.
nobody is saying the program is badly choreographed.

The issue is that the essence of the piece is not there...it's like if you ordered a chocolate cake, and then getting a deliciously amazing vanilla cake... if the latter is still good, it isn't what was expected....


I am not sure what you mean here...care to explain ?

Here's what I think Mathman is trying to say and I completely agree. Patrick is one of the best "interpreter's" of music and when he skates, you can see that the audience is so into his performance that you can hear a pin drop. He's exquisite. That's may take on Patrick. I hope that made sense.

 

[tinlizzie]

It's all in the execution. It this performance Patrick looks like he is conducting the music with his body.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJhVbTgEepY

My God that was a gorgeous skate

 

[Mathman]

I am not sure what you mean here...care to explain ?

My God that was a gorgeous skate

I guess what I mean is, "My God that was a gorgeous skate "

To me, it was like Patrick was evoking the music. In the context of the discussion about making cuts in famous pieces and patching them together to make a four and a half minute program, it was as if Patrick was calling forth the music rather than just interpreting it.

Something like that?

 

[petitebrie]

It's all in the execution. It this performance Patrick looks like he is conducting the music with his body.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJhVbTgEepY

Actually this kind of brings the thread back to its original topic: is the choreography by David Wilson? When skaters hit the right notes in his choreography it often accomplishes this "visual" effect where spatial movements mirror movement in music – repetition in music goes with repetition of movements, twizzles or turns go with "trills" (I don't know anything about music so I have no idea if this is an appropriate term), high notes will coincide with the skater's body parts hitting high positions, arms and legs can appear to "draw" the music in the air or on the ice, and so on.

 

[4everchan]

thanks mr rice, tinlizzie and mathman for the explanation.... that is what I thought you meant but I didn't want to make any assumptions.

..... so as if patrick was creating the music as he skates....

I would say that this should be the ultimate goal of a choreographer, to create a design that allows a great performer to draw the audience in.

That is what I felt with Patrick's Chopin this year as well, more than any other years or programs (except perhaps with buttle's Elegy which is also exquisite)

Petitebrie, some of these visual effects indeed work well with the musical effects as you describe. What I find particularly beautiful in Patrick's chopin as wilson created

the footwork... OMG after the 3 toe so in synch with the flowing 16th notes
the transition from the first piece to the slow prelude which happens with that gorgeously timed spin
then the simply arm motions repeated right at the beginning of the slow piece... as if he is inviting someone in
finally, the gorgeous 3S right on music at the beginning of the scherzo (he does that better at 4CC though) (the 3Lz combo is also well timed)

in any case, yes, execution is important but without the canvas, the painter cannot do anything.... so kudos here to DW

 

[Violet Bliss]

It's all in the execution. It this performance Patrick looks like he is conducting the music with his body.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJhVbTgEepY

By 4CC, not only has he raised the technical difficulty, but was truly at one with the music, with every note, flowing through a seamless piece of music and program. His landing of the 3S near the near of the program is most spectacular. Goose bumps and chills were reported by many fans. It's the epitome of the art of skating with high technical contents.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMWoPkP1cJk

 

[mrrice]

After watching Patrick's program, it hit me that Yags used the "Disco Version" of the same music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og59QN4L_ko

 

[4everchan]

By 4CC, not only has he raised the technical difficulty, but was truly at one with the music, with every note, flowing through a seamless piece of music and program. His landing of the 3S near the near of the program is most spectacular. Goose bumps and chills were reported by many fans. It's the epitome of the art of skating with high technical contents.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMWoPkP1cJk

yes indeed, after watching both back to back... this one is even better as far as timing is concerned... funny thing : comments on youtube or negative flags... really? wow... wonder who that is

 

[Violet Bliss]

After watching Patrick's program, it hit me that Yags used the "Disco Version" of the same music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og59QN4L_ko

OMG. 4everchan may be throwing up blood with the bastardization of Chopin. Such contrast with Patrick's program and performance! This here is about beats, speed and spiritedness. I can't say they are the same music with possible similar interpretations.

 

[4everchan]

i saw disco version and scrolled down...

vb you know me so well

mrrice :disapp:

LOL

OMG. 4everchan may be throwing up blood with the bastardization of Chopin. Such contrast with Patrick's program and performance! This here is about beats, speed and spiritedness. I can't say they are the same music with possible similar interpretations.

 

[Blades of Passion]

By 4CC, not only has he raised the technical difficulty, but was truly at one with the music, with every note, flowing through a seamless piece of music and program. It's the epitome of the art of skating with high technical contents.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMWoPkP1cJk

I find this to be an exaggeration and a good example of how details are being ignored. He is not "at one with the music with every note". After his opening jump combination the music is characterized by rapid piano notes, but his movement isn't rapid. Again in his footwork sequence, he isn't able to match the rapidity of the music. One way to do such a thing that his choreography doesn't use - running steps. Another way - alternating quick three-turns. Unfortunately those movements are not worth any specific points under the current rules, although in at least one instance such a thing could have been worked in and maintained the Level 4 of the sequence. So, while I think this footwork sequence could have been choreographed better even within the scope of the rules, this is a good example of choreography and musicality being constrained by the rules. There's really no way to do a Level 4 footwork sequence under the current rules and have it interpret this music perfectly. The rules only allow a particular skillset to count and that kind of constraint on movement makes it impossible to achieve the best artistry.

It doesn't end there either. Look at this camel-change-camel after the footwork sequence. No particularly great interpretation of the music happening there. After his 3Axel+2Toe combination, it doesn't precisely follow the music. This would have actually been the perfect place to the do the +2Loop in combination, but of course he saves it for later on an easier jump because under the current rules there's no difference in points with doing the 3-jump combo on an easier jump. So now let's look at that next jump element where he does do the 3-jump combo: the music is more delicate at this point and the last jump doesn't do anything with the music. Doing just 3Lutz+2Toe would have worked better here.

After his second spin of the program we have another instance of the music being more rapid and intense but his movement is softer, slower. At this point in a program he still has to do his Triple Flip and the lead up to the jump doesn't really have much to do with the music, nor does the jump itself by the time we get there and what's happening in the music at that point. This could have been improved by doing the choreographic sequence element after the spin (as a circular footwork sequence) and then building up doing the Triple Flip. There's even a great crescendo in the music, ending with a held-out low piano note, followed by a held-out high piano note, which would have been perfectly characterized by the build-up to a jump, the takeoff, and the landing.

Finally, going into the last spin of the program, the choreography isn't quite magnanimous enough to capture the spirit of the music. The extra time needed to add in this bit of extra movement could have been achieved by shortening the combo spin: going directly down into pike sit position after the jump feature, instead of spending time going into upright position after the sit position to achieve that extra feature. The final position of the spin also ideally would be shortened (ending with an outward swing of the arms when the heavy piano thump comes in) so that he can meet the end of the music exactly in time.

These are the details that need to be accounted for when scoring choreography and interpretation, but they largely aren't, and competitors are generally not receiving the necessary viewpoint needed to refine programs like this. Everything I just described is inherently felt by the audience too, even if they don't know exactly why. It's the reason why the best programs during the 6.0 era captured the audience more fully than the programs these days.

 

[Mathman]

^ Do you (BoP) think (as i do) that the Skate Canada performance was better on the points that you raise, because of its easier tech?

Edited to add: Poor Sasha. We have abandoned her.