Ice Queens

[SkateFan4Life]

While viewing my videotape of the "Fire and Ice" figure skating television documentary that featured segments on most of the top American women skaters from the post World War II period through the 1998 Winter Olympics, I was intrigued by a quote attributed to 1960 Olympic gold medalist, Carol Heiss.

She said (to paraphrase) "The woman figure skater carries a burden that the male figure skater doesn't have to carry. A male figure skater can go out there and be strong, tough, aggressive, and in harmony with his technique, and that's all that's required of him. A female skater, however, has to be just as strong and competitive, but she also has to look like a princess."

There's some truth in this statement, I believe. For so long the women skaters have been expected to be virtual princesses, both with their appearance, behavior, and skating. They were supposed to be "ladies", despite the fact that they competed in a sport that required years of grueling, tough practice - tons of sweat and long hours. There's nothing terribly glamorous about training, but these women are expected to make it all look so easy and carefree. In my opinion, this fairy-tale persona is very misleading and can give a very unrealistic impression to young girls as to just what they must go through, and endure, if they want to be top competitive figure skaters. It's tough, tough work. I bet some are in for a major shock when they start to realize the years of work and effort that are required to just learn all of the jumps, spins, and other moves, not to mention learning how to present a feminine look while performing these moves.

 

[CDMM1991]

There is some truth to the statement, but I don't think it is true that all men have to do is go out there and have the technical stuff down. That doesn't do it anymore. Who's the last World Champion or Olympic Champion that hasn't had any of the artistic side of the sport evident in his performance? Probably Elvis. But at first Elvis didn't do well in his career because of the lack of artistry in his skating. Once he discovered what worked for him, the marks went up. So I think that that's a bit of a blanket statement to make that "A male figure skater can go out there and be strong, tough, aggressive, and in harmony with his technique, and that's all that's required of him" I don't think that's all that's required of him anymore. Why isn't the multiple-quad arsenal of Chengjiang Li on top of the podium? Because his skating begins and ends with the technical side of things.

 

[Vash01]

As a general statement it is true that the female skater is expected to look like a princess. There are exceptions to this, the latest one being Irina Slustskaya. She does not fit the image of a 'lady' or a 'princess', yet she rules the ice. Midori Ito was another one of this kind, and dare I say Tonya Harding, in her glory days? However, in majority of cases the judges go for the 'princess' look- the latest being Sasha Cohen who best personifies it. I am not sure where to place Michelle Kwan. She is a 'queen' rather than a 'princess'.

Vash

 

[JonnyCoop]

Why isn't the multiple-quad arsenal of Chengjiang Li on top of the podium? Because his skating begins and ends with the technical side of things.

I have to respectfully disagree with that. Personally, I feel Li should have been on the podium by now, and not just due to his jumping. Yes, in his early career, his choreographic/music skills were more than a bit ragged, but I feel he's really come along nicely and when he's on, he skates very interesting programs. No, he's no Stephane Lambiel (who, quite honestly, is a bit TOO artistic for my taste, but this is such a rare criticism coming from me that it's almost a compliment), but I feel he's just as interesting artistically as a few others out there who consistenly outscore him. I think the reason he hasn't had a Worlds podium finish yet is because when the Chinese first came along, the conventional wisdom with the judges was, give them about .6 or .7 lower artistically than technically -- and this used to be an accurate reflection of their performances. However, it isn't anymore, but the Chinese men STILL seem to be being judged like that.

As to the basic topic of this thread -- Ms. Heiss is correct; this is one of the reasons she always tells her female students, "Think like a man, but look like a lady." The "princess factor" has decided the winner of many a Ladies competition, IMO. Some may cite Slutskaya and Ito as exceptions to this, and while I agree they don't radiate "princess" (like a Sasha Cohen or a Nancy Kerrigan) -- Slutskaya has always had a certain je ne sais quois type of charm that gives her an edge, and Ito, while extremely athletic, was just so cute and charming while being so that she didn't need to be a ballerina. Harding on the other hand, was reviled even before "Skategate" among USFSA higher-ups for her rough-hewn image. Actually, I think Ms. Heiss' statement applies much more to an AMERICAN attitude towards image than an overall World view. We like our Ladies to be princesses and our men to jump into the rafters. The attitude towards men's skating in this country seems to be changing, though, as Weir, Lysacek, and Jahnke are doing well with a more progressed form of artistry than we are used to seeing among previous American Men's skaters; however, in Ladies, it doesn't seem to be going the oppisite direction, tho Kimmie Meissner may help change that. In Ladies, there always seems to have to be an "artist" and an "athlete" among the US skaters, and you very rarely see this type of thinking among the men.

We should also bear in mind that Ms. Heiss comes from a generation wherein, to quote a great sitcom theme, "Girls were girls and men were men" and this makes a difference as well.

 

[Vash01]

I agree about Cheng Jiang Li. Last year in particular he seemed to have really improved his presentation. He was undermarked, IMO.

I would not put Jahnke in the same group as Lysacek, who is mainly a jumper, IMO, at this point, while Jahnke is the opposite. When Lysacek does not jump well, his artistry falls apart. Weir is far superior to either of these two, and is definitely a plus to mens skating, as is Jeff Buttle. They will switch the emphasis in mens skating from quads to artistry.

It will be difficult to see that kind of a pendulum swing in the ladies discipline. Even though the last 2 Olympic champions won mainly because of 3-3 jump combinations, I don't see that happening again. With the COP the more complete look will become more important. The jumps will still get a lot of marks but the PCS marks could be adjusted to make room for the lady like skating style. Again, Irina is an exception, and she is not just a jumper. She has a very special charm and personality that is completely her own. I don't see Kimmie winning unless she develops her own personality on ice. Merely doing jumps will not get it done. Given enough time she will get there. Again, she will need to add something of a 'princess' look.

Vash

 

[CDMM1991]

You may be right about Chengjiang improving this year. I think I only saw him perform once this past season and the jumps weren't there either so he probably wasn't at his best as a performer either. He was just the first example I could think of in terms of being left off the podium while having the technical arsenal to be up there.

Yes I do believe that women do have to be somewhat of a graceful ice princess, but I don't think this requirement is exclusive to said gender.

 

[gezando]

She said (to paraphrase) "The woman figure skater carries a burden that the male figure skater doesn't have to carry. A male figure skater can go out there and be strong, tough, aggressive, and in harmony with his technique, and that's all that's required of him. A female skater, however, has to be just as strong and competitive, but she also has to look like a princess."

I agree, and I believe Meno talked about the same topic too.

In my opinion, this fairy-tale persona is very misleading and can give a very unrealistic impression to young girls as to just what they must go through,

Same applies to the world of opera, nowadays the divas are expected to look slim and trim, (some even go through the stomach reduction surgery) for the looks. OTOH male opera singers are not put under the same expectation

It's tough, tough work. I bet some are in for a major shock when they start to realize the years of work and effort that are required to just learn all of the jumps, spins, and other moves, not to mention learning how to present a feminine look while performing these moves.

I have the impression that the ice queen is more of an American tradition. I don't see the same phenonema with the Japanese ladies.

in majority of cases the judges go for the 'princess' look- the latest being Sasha Cohen who best personifies it. I am not sure where to place Michelle Kwan. She is a 'queen' rather than a 'princess'

I think the ice princessness / queeness is a spectrum, on one end of the spectrum is Harding, the other end is Peggy Flemming. MK is somewhere in the middle. In her younger days prior to her college attempt, she was listening to her coach and team and went the whole way towards the Peggy end of the spectrum. I remember reading somewhere that Frank insisted Michelle to be fully made up, in a skating dress even in the practice sessions, b/c judges watch practice sessions. MK wore a unitard, w/o made up to practice session first time in SA 99, her first semester in college. Since then she shed off quite a lot of this ice princess stuff, but overall, IMO she is still leaning more towards the Peggy side of the spectrum.

Cohen is at the Peggy's side of the spectrum too. When she was with Nicks back then, he managed her publicity too??? Cohen mentioned in a fluff piece that Nicks advise her there are so many ice princesses, she may want to steer away from the ice princess image. She tried that for a while, then she swung back to the ice princess side of the spectrum. I remember immediately post olys 02, a super Cohen fan boasted that Cohen at all times wear pretty dresses to practice etc, and he dissed Mk for being too casual at practice. Since then Cohen had worn unitards to practice too.

Overall, I think most American female skaters are at the Peggy side of the spectrum, they are all ice princesses

 

[SkateFan4Life]

I definitely agree that Peggy Fleming personified the "ice princess" ideal on the ice - beautiful, artistic, graceful, and she was a lady to boot. Yet she still was a tough competitor, and she mastered all of the double jumps that her competitors performed, and she outdid them in the technical side. She was a master school figures skater, too.

Dorothy Hamill, many years ago, gave an interview in which she spoke of the "goody two-skates" image that the US expects of its champion figure skaters.
She wasn't being sarcastic at all - just stating the facts.

Nancy Kerrigan received a great deal of bad press after the 1994 Olympics, when she participated in a Disney World parade and labeled the event as "corny". I was vacationing in St. Petersburg during that time, and I remember reading a column from a local sports writer who really took Nancy to task for her "undignified" behavior. Honestly, I thought the writer was over the top, but that's the standard that American women skaters are supposed to uphold.

And, of course, Tonya Harding was considered a maverick, rebel, and an
"un-Champion" by the media, long before the attack on Nancy Kerrigan. Tonya smoke, played pool, tooled with cars, and was a tomboy. Oh, dear!! :sheesh:

 

[soogar]

Midori Ito was another one of this kind, and dare I say Tonya Harding, in her glory days? However, in majority of cases the judges go for the 'princess' look- the latest being Sasha Cohen who best personifies it. I am not sure where to place Michelle Kwan. She is a 'queen' rather than a 'princess'.

Vash

However Midori was a lady off and on the ice. I can't say that Sasha (even though she is beautiful) carries herself with the same grace and dignity that Midori has.

 

[SkateFan4Life]

Midori Ito was and is a beautiful, gracious lady. She was so sweet, humble, and joyful as she competed. I'm sure she was devastated at winning Olympic silver instead of gold in 1992, but she graciously accepted her silver medal, with that beautiful smile. Midori even apologized to her countrymen for not winning the title. IMHO, she was a breath of fresh air - and she flew in the air with her great jumps!