2017 GP Cup of China Ladies FS

[Roast Toast]

Pro tip: when you want to compare Zags positively to Wakaba, body line might not be your finest choice. She also skates way too bent forward.

 

[frida80]

With the field in France, it's impossible for her to win. She has Alina and Kaetlyn against her.

Pretty much. She’s need a full on meltdown fro, both for a win. But I do expect a medal in France.

 

[treeloving]

Mai's flow is so pleasing to eyes.

 

[moriel]

But that is what is rewarded in TES. As far as I understand, a more difficult program does not fit any of the components in the PCS. I do however agree that Zagitova deserves better PCS in terms of the TR, IN and CO here as compared with the short where she was rushing and not finishing her moves properly. Her FS had much more conviction. However, I just disagree with the SS. Her blade work is not yet at the level of Wakaba or Marin. Personally, I find Wakaba's FS a lot more awe inspiring and she really ought to get slightly higher components overall than Alina. But overall, I have no complaints with Alina winning as she really did deliver and the scores were so close it could have gone anywhere.

Not about this specific case, but overall.

Well, I see how a more difficult program could be rewarded indirectly in PCs.
For example, imagine this: there is a skater who does an FS with 7 triples and all, and another one that does an FS without a single jump. Suppose also those skater have identical skills and all. Obviously, for the second skater, its easier to hit all the PCs checkpoints, right?
Basically, with a harder program, it is harder to do all the interpretation, performance and artistry. I´m pretty sure judges acknowledge this, and i believe that it if fair to take this aspect in account when awarding PCs.

 

[qwertyskates]

But that is what is rewarded in TES. As far as I understand, a more difficult program does not fit any of the components in the PCS. I do however agree that Zagitova deserves better PCS in terms of the TR, IN and CO here as compared with the short where she was rushing and not finishing her moves properly. Her FS had much more conviction. However, I just disagree with the SS. Her blade work is not yet at the level of Wakaba or Marin. Personally, I find Wakaba's FS a lot more awe inspiring and she really ought to get slightly higher components overall than Alina. But overall, I have no complaints with Alina winning as she really did deliver and the scores were so close it could have gone anywhere.

A more difficult TES performed well deserves higher PCS. If it's all doubles and solo triples it is much easier to perform, so rightfully increase in difficulty combined with confidence, conviction and delivery should be awarded higher PCS. Athletes should be rewarded for better athleticism, stamina, skills, and energy - not withering, slowing or showing pain or strain should be part of PCS, it's about the overall quality of the entire performance too.

Wakada is strong and athletic but I notice a lot of crossovers and frankly not many difficult transitions. She is very expressive though, and has a presence that reminds me of Midori Ito. The other Japanese skater I like a lot is Mai, and not so much Marin, who comes across as bland to me.

Mai did two rather difficult programs and stuck to them with conviction and energy to the end. I never saw her perform better, and while I love Radionova, I think Mai deserves bronze here.

Just look at Men's....I doubt some of the men today can perform Zagitova's program without tiring.:sarcasm:

 

[Spirals for Miles]

Didn't Radio place 4th in Rostelecom? After Med, Caro and Wakaba? So probably no GPF for her.

But yeah, unless Med & Zag totally bomb their 2nd assignment (not gonna happen lol) they are in. Caro, Osmond and Sotskova are more unpredictable. Still, Wakaba should be in? Unless Satoko comes back and kicks *** and places 2nd (after Med) in NHK & 1st/2nd in SkAm.

You're forgetting the magic one who hasn't skated yet... Polina :luv17:

be ready to watch Alina hit 70+ PCS before the Olympics.

And she'd deserve it. She deserved it here, in my opinion.

It's just Zagitova's overall quality is much higher than Wakaba's. Take it for example, Virtue and Moir in ice dance, they could fall twice and still win... why? because the overall quality is just there.

Thank you. Exactly. Alina's quality overall is just that much better. She uses all of her body and all of the music and it looks gorgeous.

Her form in many of the movements is NOT to the level of what would be expected in ballet, I don't think you know what you're talking about. Beyond that, much of it is not meaningful. The jumps later in the program just become repetitive, they don't provide any kind of special interpretation of the music, even if she does them on the beats of music. Her transitions are overrated in this program as well, there's no truly spectacular movements, just many movements. Especially because her jumps lack flow out.

Excuse me, are you a dancer? To say that people don't know what they're talking about related to ballet??
I am. I'll tell you a couple of things right now. Her form is EXACTLY what is expected in ballet: she uses the music to highlight her movements, she uses her arms to create a more interesting picture, and she fills her program. Who exactly has jumps that don't "lack flow out"? There's no time for that in a program, and besides, that would require the jumps to be transitionless. Boring, in my opinion. I think all of the movements that she does do look less spectacular to you because there's so many, but each one has clearly been rehearsed over and over. She's very detail oriented and it works well for her. As a dancer, I really do think that she embodies dancer qualities.

You're right, not ever in any competition have I seen such hatred pouring out for a skater who did an amazing performance and rightfully won.

She is completely in character, her tanos and Rippons are exactly matched to leaps and cabrioles in ballet.

Her transitions are all based on ballet movements, incredibly difficult on ice.

ABSOLUTELY agree!

You've never seen a competition won by Medvedeva then

Hehe, quite true...

Oh come on...

First of all, No ones is hating on Alina, She is terrific and she's definitely not judging herself

Secondly, We get this kinda criticism here almost after every event
It probably happens in many sports, And what's been said on this thread is pretty mild and sometimes to the point

You think this is mild? And that no one is hating on Alina??
She's been called wooden, she's been called inauthentic for delivering a wonderful program that got deservedly high scores, but some still think "Russian inflation! backload inflation!" She's had people criticize her layout, how she does her jumps, literally every nuance in her program. The only other skater I can think of who gets that high level of hate-filled criticism is Zhenya. Coincidence? I think not.

 

[frida80]

I would not be surprised if Wakaba started to seriously train her 3A after losing twice to Alina. She’s incredible strong, but Slina just has it over her in BV. I do think Wakaba’s PCS should’ve been higher. But even so, Alina had a < on her 2nd Lutz. If Wakaba wants to ever beat her, she will need something more to push her over the edge. Hopefully her PCS will rise at the GPF.

 

[matcha]

All my bitching aside about PCS this was such an excellent ladies competition. If the upcoming GPs come close to this, we'll be very spoiled.

& congratulations to my first place and bronze medallists Wakabond & Mai lol

 

[whatif]

I would not be surprised if Wakaba started to seriously train her 3A after losing twice to Alina. She’s incredible strong, but Slina just has it over her in BV. I do think Wakaba’s PCS should’ve been higher. But even so, Alina had a < on her 2nd Lutz. If Wakaba wants to ever beat her, she will need something more to push her over the edge. Hopefully her PCS will rise at the GPF.

3A is not remedy for all maladies. I don't think it is a good strategy to change jump layouts heading into Olympics. She needs to focus on +GOEs and Japanese Fed needs to decide who it is pushing.

 

[Anni234]

Just sentimentally I am so happy that Lena made it to the podium. She was my favourite lady for so long and even though she is definitely not at her strongest, I still hope she will make it to the Olympics. She's a fighter and it's great to see her not giving up despite her struggles.

That being said, I'm still a bit sad for Mai. She has really grown on me during her senior years and that music during her FS final step sequence is just divine! I love the program and hope she isn't too sad. Out of all Japanese ladies, I definitely hope to see her at the Olympics with Wakaba, who has finally found some consistency and is looking absolutely great!

And of course happy for Alina. I imagine it is not easy going into your senior debut GP, when you are already crowned Russia's no 2 and expected to deliver at all times. And a great redemption for Marin after SC!

Such a great competition this time, the girls really brought it, the Olympic season is fierce.

 

[Yatagarasu]

and Japanese Fed needs to decide who it is pushing.

This.
I think JSF is seriously messing with these girls. They seem to have decided that they should just fight it out among themselves but they've forgotten there are other ladies in this battle and scores do carry on, in terms of reputation, from competition to competition. They need to stand behind Wakaba and Mai far more firmly than they are doing now. By the time they decide oh we should do this it may already be too late.

 

[jenm]

Placement complaints aside, this was a complete opposite of Skate Canada where the ice and the K&C were cursed. Proud of the ladies for the great performances. I hope the next events will be this exciting to watch. :thumbsup:

 

[OS]

I am laughing hard at all the defenders of Zagitova's PCS. (1 point away from Mao's Sochi FS PCS by the way, in her 1st GP debut.)

Talk about a hopeless cause. Let's see, she went from 7th place in PCS just yesterday to 1st place today in PCS in one of the best-skated events in recent memory. Talk about some artistic miracle growth over night!

If that is not ridiculously enough. Her FS today is actually a dumbed down version of her repeated JUNIOR world championship program. Here are the protocols then,

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/wjc2017/wjc2017_JuniorLadies_FS_Scores.pdf

Where Honda and Zagitova both scored around 62+ pcs then and more importantly where she lost PCS to Marin in both SP and FS just a few months ago. Zigitova beat Honda by 4 points today with the same program, where as Marin has clearly progressed forward with better, maturer program and performance then. Yup... nothing to see here...

As if Ashley or anyone else in the world apart from another Russian will get these sort of PCS 'benefits' and 'boosts' overnight, for repeating a junior program is all sort of

I would not be surprised if Wakaba started to seriously train her 3A after losing twice to Alina. She’s incredibly strong, but Slina just has it over her in BV. I do think Wakaba’s PCS should’ve been higher. But even so, Alina had a < on her 2nd Lutz. If Wakaba wants to ever beat her, she will need something more to push her over the edge. Hopefully her PCS will rise at the GPF.

The thing is she shouldn't have to. Based on what she did today should be good enough to win if PCS is marked correctly. Yes Fed propping can help, but a great skater should not need these sort of funny games, their work should speak for themselves - and it did. At least to me.

What I hate is why there seem to be different rules apply to different people? Consistency is supposed to be important, but it clearly only benefits some. Inconsistency is supposed to be harmful, but it clearly only harms some but not others. Great artistic programs are supposed to be important, but completely useless if the federation judge's interests are just not aligned with what you delivered (call it cultural taste, nitpicking whatever). This is a foreshadowing to Sochi... the judging panel at the big games will tell everything.

 

[whatif]

My first ignore list addition this season. Every post about Russian PCS will do that. Thank you.

 

[draqq]

A big problem is that audiences like to be emotionally moved, and some performances can be excellent without moving the audiences, and thus deemed to be not as deserving in PCS. That's somewhat unfair, because not all performances are about drama. Kitri for example, is about bright exuberance. It's not easy to project that for the highest BV skate to the end.

If we only reward drama, we'll end up with the same programs, POTO, Turandot, Black Swan, drama, climax, all the time.

I find it ironic that people are demanding more variety but don't appreciate it when they see something different.

I'm just glad that judges awarded Zagitova higher PCS for it.

It's not that Zagitova doesn't deserve high PCS; I just believe that Wakaba deserved higher. I believe she had better timing and connection to the music and had more ice coverage. In my opinion, "being moved" is a part of what makes a program as far as the interpretation and performance are concerned in the components. And being emotionally moved doesn't necessarily mean drama. People can be moved by a program that is all about understated elegance and stillness like Lu Chen's 1996 Worlds free skate. In fact, I can do without all the forced drama in the tangos this year for the ladies.

Perhaps I look at singles skating through too much of an ice dancing lens, but for me, it's more difficult for a skater to be emotionally invested in a program but still deliver on all the elements. And this quality is increasingly rare in skating. It's become so technical now that I don't get an emotional performance from most of the ladies skaters. It's all about the quantity of choreography and transitions that the judges respond to rather than the quality and intention behind them. But you know, that's just my opinion.

 

[madison]

I am laughing hard at all the defenders of Zagitova's PCS.

Talk about a hopeless cause. Let's see, she went from 7th place in PCS just yesterday to 1st place today in PCS in one of the best-skated events in recent memory. Talk about some artistic miracle growth over night!

If that is not ridiculously enough. Her FS today is actually a dumbed down version of her repeated JUNIOR world championship program. Here are the protocols then,

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/wjc2017/wjc2017_JuniorLadies_FS_Scores.pdf

Where Honda and Zagitova both scored around 62+ pcs then and more importantly where she lost PCS to Marin in both SP and FS just a few months ago. Zigitova beat Honda by 4 points today with the same program, where as Marin has clearly progressed forward with better, maturer program and performance then. Yup... nothing to see here...

As if Ashley or anyone else in the world apart from another Russian will get these sort of PCS 'benefits' and 'boosts' overnight, for repeating programs is all sort of



The thing is she shouldn't have to. Based on what she did today should be good enough to win if PCS is marked correctly. Yes Fed propping can help, but a great skater should not need these sort of funny games, their work should speak for themselves - and it did. At least to me.

What I hate is why there seem to be different rules apply to different people? Consistency is supposed to be important, but it clearly only benefits some. Great artistic programs are supposed to be important, but completely useless if the federation interest is just not aligned with what you delivered (call it cultural taste whatever). This is a foreshadowing to Sochi... the judging panel at the big games will tell everything.

You are absolutely right: it results that she was underscored in the short program , maybe because of the fall though.

 

[quadrupleaxel15]

I am laughing hard at all the defenders of Zagitova's PCS.

Talk about a hopeless cause. Let's see, she went from 7th place in PCS just yesterday to 1st place today in PCS in one of the best skated events in recent memory. Talk about some artistic miracle growth over night!

She skated to an equally hard new program yesterday. Today's program was something she had a lot of time to perfect as you pointed out yourself.

Her program is extremely complicated and it makes sense that she was able to beat others in PCS only after she achieved mastery over it.

 

[madison]

What impressed me much at this event were Liz Tukt's dresses... Wow, I don't think I've ever seen her in so good costumes.

 

[Zhenya is DIVINE]

The results were as I expected, swap Mihara and Higuchi.
Mihara needs to skate more consistently, skating in the "also-run" group did not help her case. No one was held down or held up. Nothing to see here please.
On the other hand, I am just laughing at Daleman's "entitlement" face in KandC. Really what did she expect after that skate???? So delusional.

Well after being held up in the SP, can you really blame her? :rofl2:

I can't believe how improved Mihara is this season. I bowdown to her coaches!

I can't get onboard with the notion of Wakaba being robbed. Alina is quite expressive and I'd say overall her PCS is definitely not worse than Higuchi's. I am a bit surprised that Zagitova is skating to Don Quixote again. I thought surely Queen Eteri would have something shiny and new lined up for the Olympic season.. In any case, it's going to be next to impossible to compete with Alina's TES. Her jumping and spinning is truly first-rate! :dance2:

 

[Vasyok]

Hello
Can someone tell me source of No commentary, stream
like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGo6itBPfO0