In a class of his own: Orser owned 2013-14 season | Page 6 | Golden Skate

In a class of his own: Orser owned 2013-14 season

breathesgelatin

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Shall we see how Nam progresses under Orser's care in the future then? Orser did help Nam improve on things he was greatly lacking on especially his jump technique. :)

I'm curious how Elizabet Turzynbaeva develops under Orser. There are aspects of her skating I find intriguing, although overall things aren't completely clicking yet.
 

Maria Victoria

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
The 'private' conversation can be found on this forum, reported by the user who spoke with him herself. IIRC Orser was asked who he thought could win OGM and he replied Javier. But you got the timing wrong: it was not at the beginning of this season but the season before that, when Yuzuru had just started working with Orser. Either SA or Skate Canada.

Thanks for clarifying the context Kalina.

Now Brian Orser says he sees greatness in Yuzuru every day :). And as lilahozi noted, Yuzuru himself in his press conference with the Foreign Correspondents' Club of of Japan said he doesn't think he would have won the gold medal in Sochi if he had not gone to Toronto. He credits Brian with calming him down before performances. And that he embraced and bowed to Brian shortly after learning he won the Olympic gold medal meant he acknowledged Brian's part in his success which is not to say that his previous coaches also did not contribute to the same.
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
By your logic, Marina Zoueva is also one of the luckiest coaches around for getting the two most talented dance teams after she split up with her ex-partner, who many attribute to building up those teams' basic skills. Which successful coach hasn't been presented with extremely talented skaters?

Also, Hanyu himself said that moving to Canada was the key factor in him getting the OGM.

I think alot of Yuna Kim fans (including you) like to downplay Orser's achievements. Is he 100% responsible for his skaters' successes? No. But is coaching success due to just being "lucky"? No. I find it quite insulting to flippantly equate the difficult task of coaching THREE male skaters to success (during Olympics season no less) to "managing to not screw up".

As I said before, everyone said that if Hanyu didn't succeed under Orser, it'd be Orser's fault. But now that Hanyu has succeeded under Orser, it's all his previous coach's work. It's a lose-lose situation for Orser.

I think you are mixing up issues, and make assumptions that isn't there. This is a conversations about person of the year, not whether Orser is a good coach (he is), but there are many people also deserving in this sport that are not being considered/recognized. To contemplate the candidate is a fun exercise to reflect on the Olympic year of this sport.

You can feel insulted all you want but don't confuse the points by putting words in my mouth and lump them with any particular group. I have only ever spoke for myself as an unique individual and never cared much for political correctness. Perhaps you did not know, I happen to be one of the biggest early Hanyu fans on multiple boards since his juniors, but really did not like his artistic development under Orser which is a key interest for me watching this sport - unique possibilities of combing musicality and artistry. To put it simply, I fell in love with his Romeo and Juliet and he has not progressed since, if anything... he has gone backwards regardless of the inflated PCS and the medals showing for it.

I can assure you that

1. I have never said Orser is not critical in helping Kim/Yuzuru to their OGM success. However had Hanyu and Javier skated the lights out at the Olympics like Kim, V/M, D/W at these biggest events which they have been training for all these years, I'd certainly be among the first to vote for Orser for the miraculous transformation and double whammy, but they DID NOT. This is a sport, you judge according to achievements not on niceties / political correctness / popularity. It is never just about placement but HOW they won/did. Some silver and bronze are better than Gold! Otherwise Frank Carroll should have won the award every year in North America (Gold, Ten after all made massive strides this year).

2. Yes Marina has great skaters, but her skaters produced consistent amazing work with her solo as well. Lets go back to watch the 2 Olympics cycles again... did you SEE the way her skaters did? Their choreographed programs, performance, incredible standards produced? The transcendent Carmen, the snazzy Scheherazade? vs Hanyu/Javier's 2 years with Orser and what they did. Now... you go and watch how Hanyu and Javier skated at the Olympics again. Hardly on the same ball park.

3. Saying someone lucky IS NOT taking credit off them or their achievement... some of the great partnership in the sport was about meeting the right student/coach/choreographer at the right time, finding the right fit. Some are born lucky and unlucky. Some had lucky/unlucky night/ injuries/ right political pull etc etc. To not acknowledge this is arrogant or by not conscious of it is actually ignorant. Hanyu's OGM is more lucky than great, so is the fact Orser get handed another star pupil that is pure diamond.
 

pec0

Match Penalty
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Whenever you talk about Mr.Orser, you should always think about the Queen. Ladies singles was owned by the Queen since 2010 and it is Mr.Orser who started that. So Mr.Orser really owned all seasons since 2010. In my mind, the Queen and Mr.Orser are like an eternal pair.
 

Ophelia

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 6, 2013
I think you are mixing up issues, and make assumptions that isn't there. This is a conversations about person of the year, not whether Orser is a good coach (he is), but there are many people also deserving in this sport that are not being considered/recognized. To contemplate the candidate is a fun exercise to reflect on the Olympic year of this sport.

You can feel insulted all you want but don't confuse the points by putting words in my mouth and lump them with any particular group. I have only ever spoke for myself as an unique individual and never cared much for political correctness. Perhaps you did not know, I happen to be one of the biggest early Hanyu fans on multiple boards since his juniors, but really did not like his artistic development under Orser which is a key interest for me watching this sport - unique possibilities of combing musicality and artistry. To put it simply, I fell in love with his Romeo and Juliet and he has not progressed since, if anything... he has gone backwards regardless of the inflated PCS and the medals showing for it.

I can assure you that

1. I have never said Orser is not critical in helping Kim/Yuzuru to their OGM success. However had Hanyu and Javier skated the lights out at the Olympics like Kim, V/M, D/W at these biggest events which they have been training for all these years, I'd certainly be among the first to vote for Orser for the miraculous transformation and double whammy, but they DID NOT. This is a sport, you judge according to achievements not on niceties / political correctness / popularity. It is never just about placement but HOW they won/did. Some silver and bronze are better than Gold! Otherwise Frank Carroll should have won the award every year in North America (Gold, Ten after all made massive strides this year).

2. Yes Marina has great skaters, but her skaters produced consistent amazing work with her solo as well. Lets go back to watch the 2 Olympics cycles again... did you SEE the way her skaters did? Their choreographed programs, performance, incredible standards produced? The transcendent Carmen, the snazzy Scheherazade? vs Hanyu/Javier's 2 years with Orser and what they did. Now... you go and watch how Hanyu and Javier skated at the Olympics again. Hardly on the same ball park.

3. Saying someone lucky IS NOT taking credit off them or their achievement... some of the great partnership in the sport was about meeting the right student/coach/choreographer at the right time, finding the right fit. Some are born lucky and unlucky. Some had lucky/unlucky night/ injuries/ right political pull etc etc. To not acknowledge this is arrogant or by not conscious of it is actually ignorant. Hanyu's OGM is more lucky than great, so is the fact Orser get handed another star pupil that is pure diamond.

Why are you basing "person of the YEAR" recognition just on a single event - the Olympics LP performance? Yes, this was an Olympic season, but what about the Euros? The Olympics SP? The Worlds? The Junior Worlds? It appears the point you're making is that Orser's two pupils didn't skate "the lights out" at the Olympics LP, or produce (by your opinion) great, artistic programs like V/M or D/W, and thus it doesn't equal a "miraculous transformation" and "double whammy".

If it was just Hanyu winning the Olympics despite a flawed performance, Orser wouldn't have gotten this recognition. If it was just Hanyu winning Olympics, Worlds, and Grand Prix, Orser wouldn't have gotten the recognition. But when you have several of his male pupils (the other two who weren't flawless diamonds half-polished) together sweeping the awards podium (not one, not two, not three) this season, it's is quite a feat .
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Whenever you talk about Mr.Orser, you should always think about the Queen. Ladies singles was owned by the Queen since 2010 and it is Mr.Orser who started that. So Mr.Orser really owned all seasons since 2010. In my mind, the Queen and Mr.Orser are like an eternal pair.
If by the Queen you mean Yu-Na Kim, then I have to point out that ladies' figure skating has most certainly not been "owned" by her, or by anyone else, since 2010. Since the beginning of the 2010-11 season, there have been four different World Champions (Ando, Kostner, Kim, Asada), an Olympic champion who never won (or even medalled at) Worlds, the ladies competition in the Olympic team event was won by yet a different skater, three different skaters won the Europeans (Meier, Kostner twice, Lipnitskaia), four different skaters won 4CC (Ando, Asada, Wagner, Murakami) and three won the GPF (Czisny, Kostner, Asada twice). Given that Kim sat out most of the 2010-11 season and all of 2011-12, one can hardly see her as the dominant and influential competitor of the past four years.

That's why I like the ladies' discipline so much these days: you never know what might happen, and there is no one dominant skater (or even just a competition between two top skaters/teams). The most consistently successful skater who actually competed four the full four years is Carolina Kostner, who is not now nor has she ever been coached by Brian Orser.

The eternal pair stuff is somewhere between ridiculous and creepy.
 

nguyenghita

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
If by the Queen you mean Yu-Na Kim, then I have to point out that ladies' figure skating has most certainly not been "owned" by her, or by anyone else, since 2010. Since the beginning of the 2010-11 season, there have been four different World Champions (Ando, Kostner, Kim, Asada), an Olympic champion who never won (or even medalled at) Worlds, the ladies competition in the Olympic team event was won by yet a different skater, three different skaters won the Europeans (Meier, Kostner twice, Lipnitskaia), four different skaters won 4CC (Ando, Asada, Wagner, Murakami) and three won the GPF (Czisny, Kostner, Asada twice). Given that Kim sat out most of the 2010-11 season and all of 2011-12, one can hardly see her as the dominant and influential competitor of the past four years.

That's why I like the ladies' discipline so much these days: you never know what might happen, and there is no one dominant skater (or even just a competition between two top skaters/teams). The most consistently successful skater who actually competed four the full four years is Carolina Kostner, who is not now nor has she ever been coached by Brian Orser.

The eternal pair stuff is somewhere between ridiculous and creepy.
Well, many people prefer quality much more than quantity ;)

Carolina? Yeah she has accomplished many things after 2010, but if you really talk about the influence/reputation in the skating world, she is not the name who people remember first. She is great but never be considered the best or anything nowhere to "dominance". She could win some competitions if there were no any top skater or they not in top form, but when others show up or really on, she is just forever behind someone. And so far, her defeated always totally fine, because either the winners were better than her or simply not many people care enough to protested the outcome for her.

Yuna has barely competed in the last 4 years, but once she showed up, she is the one who control her destiny no matter what. When she lost to someone (yeah, Miki and Russian), it's just too annoying with all the petition, the protest, the scandal all around ... that make a big difference when we talk about the dominance and influence between the two.

But Mao is the different story, she is really the one who has accomplished the most in the last 4 years. Beside Olympic and Worlds in 2011 and 2012, she won everything else.
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
^Buttercup has a point though. While Yuna Kim has remained successful and skilled from 2010-14, I can't say she was dominant. It's hard to be dominant when you're barely around. I would hand this quad to Carolina Kostner for her consistent presence and results (even though her skating was... less than consistent... and I really like both Miki and Mao). But frankly, no one dominated. It's 2002-06 all over again (where you could make an argument for Shizuka, Irina, or Sasha, with Michelle not far behind).

The "queen" and "eternal pair" parts sound really :scratch: :eek:
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Well, many people prefer quality much more than quantity ;)

Carolina? Yeah she has accomplished many things after 2010, but if you really talk about the influnce or reputation in the skating world, she is not the named who people remember the most. She is great but never be considered the best or anything nowhere to "dominance".

Yuna has barely competed in the last 4 years, but once she showed up, she is the one who control her destiny no matter what. When she lost to someone (yeah, Miki and Russian), it's just too annoying with all the petition, the protest, the scandal all around ... that make a big difference when we talk about the dominance and influence between the two.
Really? So Kim can control her own destiny, except when she can't of course, but that doesn't count because there was a Russian. Oh, except when it was Ando. Apparently that also doesn't count. I don't buy that Kim's skating is of greater quality than Kostner's, or that her recent results have been of greater quality. We don't know how she would have fared skating full seasons since 2010. And even if she did, I don't see what it would have had to do with Orser.

Kim competing may make a big difference to her fans, and there are certainly many of them - but Japanese skaters are also very popular, and Kostner is respected and admired among fans and among her fellow skaters. Here's the skaters' section in Sochi after Kostner skated her LP. Ashley Wagner named Kostner's program her favorite of the year (I think she meant the SP), and I've seen other skaters express similar sentiments on Twitter. IIRC, Adelina Sotnikova was extremely complimentary about Kostner when she did commentary at Worlds. And outside of competitive skating, Kostner is the headliner of the very well-received Opera on Ice.

Suggesting that Kostner does not enjoy much influence or reputation in the skating world is frankly laughable. Unless someone is ubering a single skater, they would be aware that more than one skater is popular and respected.
 

nguyenghita

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
Really? I don't buy that Kim's skating is of greater quality than Kostner's, or that her recent results have been of greater quality. We don't know how she would have fared skating full seasons since 2010. And even if she did, I don't see what it would have had to do with Orser.

Kim competing may make a big difference to her fans, and there are certainly many of them - but Japanese skaters are also very popular, and Kostner is respected and admired among fans and among her fellow skaters. Here's the skaters' section in Sochi after Kostner skated her LP. Ashley Wagner named Kostner's program her favorite of the year (I think she meant the SP), and I've seen other skaters express similar sentiments on Twitter. IIRC, Adelina Sotnikova was extremely complimentary about Kostner when she did commentary at Worlds. And outside of competitive skating, Kostner is the headliner of the very well-received Opera on Ice.

Suggesting that Kostner does not enjoy much influence or reputation in the skating world is frankly laughable. Unless someone is ubering a single skater, they would be aware that more than one skater is popular and respected.
Hmm, I didn't compare their skating in general.

But you really think that their result been comparable? LOL. Just ask anyone and wait for their answer, Yuna won at 2013 World and Kostner won at 2012, they are comparable quality? LOL

You can quickly listed how others admired Carol, don't make me start about how many people/skaters/experts admired Yuna, it's just too long :laugh:

Don't get me wrong, Carol is well repsected and a great skater. But you are the one who described her as the most succesful-the most dominant in the last 4 years, it's just so wrong. It's Mao who technically the most dominant and Yuna who make the skating world rolling around with her epic comeback and Olympic's scandal.

Really? So Kim can control her own destiny, except when she can't of course, but that doesn't count because there was a Russian. Oh, except when it was Ando. Apparently that also doesn't count.
Yuna can control her own destiny, yes. She lost 2011 because she made some costly mistake herself, not because Miki was too good for her to beat. If Yuna had clean, do you think she still lose? And 2014, yeah, that's why countless scandal threads still very active even it was almost 4 months ago.
 

cooper

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Well, many people prefer quality much more than quantity ;)

Carolina? Yeah she has accomplished many things after 2010, but if you really talk about the influence/reputation in the skating world, she is not the name who people remember first. She is great but never be considered the best or anything nowhere to "dominance". She could win some competitions if there were no any top skater or they not in top form, but when others show up or really on, she is just forever behind someone. And so far, her defeated always totally fine, because either the winners were better than her or simply not many people care enough to protested the outcome for her.

Yuna has barely competed in the last 4 years, but once she showed up, she is the one who control her destiny no matter what. When she lost to someone (yeah, Miki and Russian), it's just too annoying with all the petition, the protest, the scandal all around ... that make a big difference when we talk about the dominance and influence between the two.

But Mao is the different story, she is really the one who has accomplished the most in the last 4 years. Beside Olympic and Worlds in 2011 and 2012, she won everything else.

yuna didn't dominate because she wasn't around for the most part..so technically she didn't dominate.. so don't take that an offense..
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Hmm, I didn't compare their skating in general.
Let me jog your memory, dear:
Well, many people prefer quality much more than quantity ;)
That strongly suggests that you feel that Kim has quality to Kostner's quantity, which I disagree with.

But you really think that their result been comparable? LOL. Just ask anyone and wait for their answer, Yuna won at 2013 World and Kostner won at 2012, they are comparable quality? LOL
Kostner had better programs. Kim was cleaner. Yes, they're comparable.

You can quickly listed how others admired Carol, don't make me start about how many people/skaters/experts admired Yuna, it's just too long :laugh:
Your argument was that Carolina Kostner (see, that's her name; not "Carol") was not particularly influential or respected in the skating world. I demonstrated otherwise. I then pointed out that it is possible for more than one skater to be respected and popular! I realize that this is a difficult concept for ubers to comprehend, but do try.

Don't get me wrong, Carol is well repsected and a great skater. But you are the one who described her as the most succesful-the most dominant in the last 4 years, it's just so wrong. It's Mao who technically the most dominant and Yuna who make the skating world rolling around with her epic comeback and Olympic's scandal.
I didn't. I wrote that there was no dominant skater in the past four years, but that Kostner had been the most consistently successful. I don't see how that can be disputed. She's the only lady in the past four years who skated regularly without ever missing a podium, and had some major wins during this time.
 

sajoya

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 15, 2014
How is it that a thread originally about Orser turned into debates like this? (Yuna vs Carolina? Really??? :scratch:)

Can't we just leave this thread the way it's suppose to be? Congratulating him instead of doubting him and his students?

On a serious note, congrats Orser. You deserved it this year.
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
Don't get me wrong, Carol is well repsected and a great skater. But you are the one who described her as the most succesful-the most dominant in the last 4 years, it's just so wrong. It's Mao who technically the most dominant and Yuna who make the skating world rolling around with her epic comeback and Olympic's scandal.
But the first two years of the quad were much too disappointing for Mao. She and Caro each won one Worlds, except Caro also won an Olympic medal. I don't hold the Olympics too much against Mao, because I think her free skate was the skate of the evening (possibly the skate of the entire Olympics). But Carolina did have better (or at least comparable) results. She was a bit overshadowed by the Yuna-Mao rivalry for much of her career, but she's certainly not behind the other two in results from 2010 to 2014.
 

nguyenghita

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
Let me jog your memory, dear:
That strongly suggests that you feel that Kim has quality to Kostner's quantity, which I disagree with.
I talk about their result quality, not their skating skill.
Kostner had better programs. Kim was cleaner. Yes, they're comparable.
Yuna had great programs and cleaner. Many people consider her's as timeless, so they are not comparable. Youtube is the great source for everyone ;)

Your argument was that Carolina Kostner (see, that's her name; not "Carol") was not particularly influential or respected in the skating world. I demonstrated otherwise. I then pointed out that it is possible for more than one skater to be respected and popular! I realize that this is a difficult concept for ubers to comprehend, but do try.
And I didn't said that Carol was not respected at all, dear.
that make a big difference when we talk about the dominance and influence between the two.
I said the big difference, and it's including fans (ie non-skating fans), not experts.
I didn't. I wrote that there was no dominant skater in the past four years, but that Kostner had been the most consistently successful. I don't see how that can be disputed. She's the only lady in the past four years who skated regularly without ever missing a podium, and had some major wins during this time.
And yes, this is where I wrong. Sorry. But well, I still consider Mao is the most successful. She off Olympic and Worlds podium in 2 years but she actually won everything else. Not like Carol, she on podium quite consistent but still lost too many gold to call "the most successful"
 

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
Whenever you talk about Mr.Orser, you should always think about the Queen.

You make it sound like she's somekind of medicine that you have to take it because the doctor has ordered you. :rolleye:
We can very well talk about Orser without thinking of the "Queen". He was a very well known skater before she was even born.
 
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