ISU takes one further step towards raising the age limit

[Anna K.]

i'd go further than that : there should not be protected persons... if you do sport, you follow anti-doping rules... if you are underage, your parents and entourage are responsible for you and must make sure that you do not dope. period...

Just to get back on track, the ISU ruling about age was in motion way before the doping scandal. This may add fuel to the fire but it's not the main reason why the ISU is considering raising the age for seniors

It looks to me that there are no clear rules how to delegate responsibility if an underage person is caught doping and accordingly, what should be the consequences. Like, there was an investigation and what? Should Grandpa be banned from watching FS for two years? Eventually everybody is getting away with that.

I believe it is easier for ISU to rise the age limit to avoid similar mess in future. Setting up other rules would mean years long discussions and negotiations to start with, while they have already started the process about rising the age limit. Actually, rising the age limit might be the only thing that ISU can do, other rules could be up to WADA (?).

 

[4everchan]

It looks to me that there are no clear rules how to delegate responsibility if an underage person is caught doping and accordingly, what should be the consequences. Like, there was an investigation and what? Should Grandpa be banned from watching FS for two years? Eventually everybody is getting away with that.

I believe it is easier for ISU to rise the age limit to avoid similar mess in future. Setting up other rules would mean years long discussions and negotiations to start with, while they have already started the process about rising the age limit. Actually, rising the age limit might be the only thing that ISU can do, other rules could be up to WADA (?).

I have read around here but cannot find it, that the ISU was already thinking that since the age of skaters competing at a high level is often very low, the rule needed some thought... this post is probably in the doping thread... if It comes up i will copy it here..

 

[wakuwaku]

Will 17 yr olds still be considered 'protected persons'? It really bothers me that Valieva was not suspended from this competition because she was underage. If you test positive, you should not be allowed to compete.

Wrong. She was not suspended because her tests were negative during OG, WADA violated their own time regulations in handling old tests and she could prove possibility of an accident and negligibility for that old failed test - first of all. Her being underage was just an extra in that decision. I believe ROC advocates were able to get that decision from CAS even for older person - if the test's same conditions were at place.

I strongly believe the ISU should change their rules so "protected persons" can't compete in senior events. I don't think anyone wants a repeat of what happened in this Olympics, ever.

What happened in this Olympics is what "protected person" status should prevent and specifically was made for purpose of preventing it. Responsibility for the fact that status couldn't work like it was intended lies within IOC. It has nothing to do with ISU rules or allowed age. On the contrary - without that status be able to work even in theory (i.e. with increasing age) what happened in this Olympics is actually encouraged - not prevented - to happen without any obstacles now. I strongly believe that protected status should work for each and every athlete of any age since everybody should have right for private information protection during such cases until court final decision is made. If that happened with 17. y.o. Trusova or even 21 y.o. Sakamoto - with similar media attention and pressure - the psychological trauma and hysterical reaction could be no less severe. It doesn't depend on age - nobody would be able to handle trials Kamila was forced to go through unscathed - adult or not. Instead of trying to limit persons able to use protection against media psychological abuse (by raising age) - IOC should think about applying that natural protection of their personal information for everyone. However, with suggested age raising solution they just tries to remove legal responsibility from themselves - not fix the problem of media psychological abuse for athletes suspected in violating rules. Labeling people as criminals long before they could even try to defend themselves is not what makes good image for a sport.

 

[NanaPat]

If one of the older athletes had received news of a positive drug test, their test result would (might?) have been announced and they would not have been allowed to compete in the Olympics. They would probably have been sent home, where they could have been protected from media scrutiny.

 

[TarAncalime]

Child athletes are too valuable for the IOC to set age limit

Jens Weinreich discusses why it is hard for Olympic sports to set age limits and shows how it leaves child athletes vulnerable to authoritarian states.

playthegame.org

This discussion about age limit is quite moot if you consider what makes it possible in the first place having children there. Jens Weinreich, the author, grew up in the rigid GDR system which demanded of their athletes that they had to even have family planning second to success.
The problem are the structures where child athletes are exploited for either commercial or prestige reasons by adults.

 

[Draculus]

Child athletes are too valuable for the IOC to set age limit

Jens Weinreich discusses why it is hard for Olympic sports to set age limits and shows how it leaves child athletes vulnerable to authoritarian states.

playthegame.org

"the regime of Eteri Tutberidze"...
I would say this article is typical example of The Boy Who Cried Wolf
While there are some issues for real but this narrative completely messes it.

 

[Zora]

Figure skating became much more popular with quad revolution in women. It's obvious by constantly increasing number of views old stars can only dream about.

Is that really so? For example Yuna Kim: there was a big hype around her in 2010, she had many videos with million views, but sooner or later they were deleted on youtube. Do the quads really attract more viewers (outside of Russia)?

 

[whatif]

So according to Russian press, among many other proposals by various federations on the next ISU congress is ISU's own proposal to reform PCS scoring systems. The special technical committee proposed to reduce PCS to only three instead of five assessment areas. They are getting rid off Interpretation and Performance.
Is it being discussed here?

 

[iceskater10]

You say that USA would not be hurt, but their highest finishing skater would not have been eligible to participate had the rule been in place. That's a bit off, isn't it?

And Kamila would not have been there!!

 

[skatedreamer]

You say that USA would not be hurt, but their highest finishing skater would not have been eligible to participate had the rule been in place. That's a bit off, isn't it?

If the rules apply to everyone, the playing field is still even. It also seems to me that raising the age limit could hurt Russia more than other countries.

Reason: Eteri's pre-rotation technique -- part of her key to landing quads -- requires the skater to have a small, light body so that she can start twisting the body before takeoff. Very often, small & light = pre-pubescent. After the normal body changes that puberty brings, jumps can be lost. What happens if Eteri has to "make do" with old ladies of 18?

 

[wakuwaku]

It also seems to me that raising the age limit could hurt Russia more than other countries.

Actually - it's opposite. Russia's domination (in ladies) will be even more hopeless. Both in juniors and seniors. In juniors reason is evident. In seniors - the most stable, talented and strong quadsters (Shscherbakova, Trusova, Valieva) among with extremely strong reserve (Kostornaia, Usacheva, Khromykh, Tuktamysheva) won't be threatened by their younger Russian rivals anymore. NonRussians still won't be able to do anything since mere 3+3 combos is huge problem for them - and Russian seniors even if they lose their quads - always will have stable triples.

eason: Eteri's pre-rotation technique -- part of her key to landing quads -- requires the skater to have a small, light body so that she can start twisting the body before takeoff. Very often, small & light = pre-pubescent.

Wrong. Watch jumps of adult skaters in slo-mo such as Loena Hendrixx, Bychenko, Voronov, Uno, Zhou, Young You etc. You will see the same "Eteri" technique despite having adult body.

 

[Mathman]

In fact, if the ISU is determined to raise the age limit for whatever reason, the Valieva situation cements it. The ISU can just say, "See?"

 

[wakuwaku]

In fact, if the ISU is determined to raise the age limit for whatever reason, the Valieva situation cements it. The ISU can just say, "See?"

Just like in politics - the last thing they care about is pretexts. Valieva situation is just a pretext - like it was with pair skater suicide case couple of years ago. At ISU congress the real discussion will be started among various fractions with conflicting interests. All we are saying here now about health, longevity etc. probably won't be even mentioned behind the scenes. I suspect the main topic will be money and influence between federations - and struggle of beneficiars of this rule against their opponents. It can very well end then in keeping the rule as it is now despite all media and society perceived (in fact - artificially created) pressure to raise it. There were lot of unpopular rules kept or implemented, after all. We will see.

 

[skatedreamer]

Actually - it's opposite. Russia's domination (in ladies) will be even more hopeless. Both in juniors and seniors. In juniors reason is evident. In seniors - the most stable, talented and strong quadsters (Shscherbakova, Trusova, Valieva) among with extremely strong reserve (Kostornaia, Usacheva, Khromykh, Tuktamysheva) won't be threatened by their younger Russian rivals anymore. NonRussians still won't be able to do anything since mere 3+3 combos is huge problem for them - and Russian seniors even if they lose their quads - always will have stable triples.

Alyssa Liu landed 3-3's in her Olympics program. And what about Kaori or Wakaba Higuchi?

Wrong. Watch jumps of adult skaters in slo-mo such as Loena Hendrixx, Bychenko, Voronov, Uno, Zhou, Young You etc. You will see the same "Eteri" technique despite having adult body.

Point taken.
But pre-rotation is also much harder on young bodies because they have to use their backs more than their legs. Yulia Lipnitskaya and Evgenia Medvedeva both retired with back injuries, Yulia at 19 and Evgenia at 18. Both are/were Eteri students.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I'm in favour of raising age to 16, so there won't be a minor protection nonsense ever again, the Beijing situation has convinced me to that.

Just change the rules so there is no "minor protection" for doping.

I think trying to increase the age limit is bad for the sport. There are 15 year olds out there who have enough maturity and deserve to compete.

The judges need to stop rewarding bad technique and trash programs in the scores, that would help a lot. In addition, introduce an Artistic Program so that people don't need super difficult jumps to compete at the top in one area of figure skating, only some good triples. Then we can see longevity and technique and real performance rewarded in the sport, people in their 40's could potentially still be competitive with the "Quad King/Queen".

 

[Ares]

ISU comes up with some good idea finally, for once.

 

[Draculus]

I do not understand what are the special 'ties' between Eteri and Putin, that Mishin (or any other Russian figure skating coach) f.e. does not have.

Letting this Dr. S. work in Sambo 70 for instance although being banned for 4 years and shortened to 2 due to intervention from higher up. RUSADA is deeply corrupt and certainly not welcoming against independent doping sleuths. Many 2014 cases still haven#t been looked at and decided for the same reason. Looking at the present situation it is unlikely that it will happen. So a ban of all Russian sport federations would be logical.

So all these things above are proof that Eteri has special 'ties' with Putin?

 

[moonvine]

FWIW Jackie thinks it will pass.

 

[NaVi]

Bumping up this couple months old thread.

I've become more agnostic to raising the age after opposing it before. I still think 16 is a better age to set and that there are surely going to be unforeseen(by the advocates) consequences to raising the age to 17. But part of me wants to see it through just to see what happens.

One consequence that I find likely(and that I've never heard anyone else bring up) is that raising the age to 17 might reduce how many unique major medalists there are. A "major medalist" to me is someone who has earned a medal on the Junior/Senior Grand Prix or one of the major championships(GPF, 4CC, EU, Jr/Sr Worlds). The reason this could happen is that juniors who can earn medals go senior ASAP and if they have to stay junior they'll push others who would have earned medals out. There are far more skaters who have earned a JGP medal and not earned a high level medal than have earned a higher level medal but not a JGP medal. I think there a slight chance of a very slight increase in unique senior medalists but that number will be swamped out by the reduction in unique junior medalists.

Why is this important? Well, being denied a medal and recognition can be discouraging and these sorts of achievements are things a person and federation can advertise about themselves.

What can be done to counteract this? One way could be to split the juniors themselves into 2 separate age groups. One for those aged 13-14 and another for those 15+.

The next couple things I have seen others(or myself) bring up before.

17 is an age where people really do think about college. Raising the age to 17 could give a greater advantage to both those who are wealthy, receive government support, or some kind of private scholarship support. I think this point may turn out to be overwrought but it should be looked into at least.

IMO, if the age is raised then something is going to have to happen to bring a little bit more attention to the junior level events. And it has to be organizational and intentional. The notion that the skaters themselves are responsible for driving interest is wrongheaded and ignores how much interest needs to be ginned up and constructed through promotion and presentation.

I'll comment more deeply if the rule passes, but in general there needs to be 1) better event location selection 2) somehow get junior events on tv 3) Perhaps integrate junior events in with senior events more often like how the GPF 4) 2 & 3 might require creating a kind of tiered or relegation system to reduce the length of the events.

 

[moonvine]

From Russian media reports:

The ISU Council called for a phased increase of the age limit to 17 years in figure skating

The Council of the International Skating Union (ISU) called for a phased increase of the age limit in figure skating, Match TV reports, citing a source familiar with the situation.

A proposal to raise the age has been submitted to the 2022 ISU Congress.
The decision was formed on the basis of data received from the ISU Medical Board on this issue.

The Council proposes in the next season to leave the age of advancement to seniors in all disciplines unchanged (at 15 years), in the 2023/24 season to raise the age to 16 years, in the 2024/25 season to 17 years.

Hooray!