Men Free Skate - What were the judges thinking???

[Sk8n Mama]

It's not figure jumping, people, it's figure skating! In the old 6.0 system, I'm sure Li would have done better but his spins are atrocious and there is nothing in between the jumps but some arm movements and crossovers. I would imagine his spins are all level 1 with no bonus where Jeff's are level 2 with bonus, final combo maybe level 3. In the CoP, everything counts and the most well-rounded skater wins. That's how Buttle got in there with two falls. What you can't see on tv is the flow he carries and the absolute polish of every movement. THe basic skating skills are flawless-not a single 'scratch' sound as he skates. I used to think he wasn't so hot, then I saw him live at Canadians and completely changed my opinion.

As for Jeff's implied "gift" of silver, IMO, he wuz robbed royally on the second mark in the SP so if they gave him a little extra on the second mark in the LP it all balances out.

I've never, myself, bought into the Johnny Weir lovefest. Maybe it's being Canadian. His artistry seems like he's trying too hard.

 

[Doggygirl]

It's not figure jumping, people, it's figure skating! In the old 6.0 system, I'm sure Li would have done better but his spins are atrocious and there is nothing in between the jumps but some arm movements and crossovers. I would imagine his spins are all level 1 with no bonus where Jeff's are level 2 with bonus, final combo maybe level 3. In the CoP, everything counts and the most well-rounded skater wins. That's how Buttle got in there with two falls. What you can't see on tv is the flow he carries and the absolute polish of every movement. THe basic skating skills are flawless-not a single 'scratch' sound as he skates. I used to think he wasn't so hot, then I saw him live at Canadians and completely changed my opinion.

As for Jeff's implied "gift" of silver, IMO, he wuz robbed royally on the second mark in the SP so if they gave him a little extra on the second mark in the LP it all balances out.

I've never, myself, bought into the Johnny Weir lovefest. Maybe it's being Canadian. His artistry seems like he's trying too hard.

ITA regarding Li and Buttle. I have a real soft spot for Li and I LOVE to watch him skate. But I don't think he's close to the other top guys at all in the "other" department. (other than jumps) But he sure can JUMP and it's fun to watch.

I was thrilled to see Lambiel win. For me anyway, he's got the whole package - the jumps and the "other."

I was also happy for Jeff as his "other" is just superb. He will be in the hunt for the Oly's especially if he can get it more together in the jump department.

I was glad to see Evan medal. He performed very consistently across all three phases, and if you want to win, that's important.

On Weir. I love his Otonal program when he is totally on. His timing in every teensy little move is so precise that it can move me to tears. But I think that very minute timing is critical to pulling off that program. If he is the slightest bit off, which he was yesterday and at least one other time this year, to me it goes from being a moving program to just another nice program with some interesting choreography pretty quickly.

DG

 

[Dee4707]

Just my thoughts on the Men's Free Skate ...

... there is no question that Stephane Lambiel is the rightful champion ...
But what's up with the rest??? I mean, I can just get over Jeff Buttle winning silver (though he shouldn't have been ahead of Weir) ... but Lysacek with the bronze? Are you kidding me?`

How could Johnny Weir not be on the podium? How could anyone prefer Evan Lysacek's program to that of Johnny who is so much stronger both in the technical elements and program components?

There were several other decisions that apparently no one can understand but not giving Johnny Weir the Bronze medal is unforgivable.
Vanessa

Vanessa, these were some of the same questions I had. I do admit after reading the whole thread, I have calmed down some. :yes: After watching the men last night, I couldn't understand how Buttle got the silver. I do concede that Lamiel should have gotten the gold and I do concede that Johnny's skate wasn't his best. Another thing I don't understand is what happened to some of the seasoned skaters like Dambier and Li. I have always thought Li was undermarked but since I didn't see him skate, I just wondered. :sheesh:

Dee

 

[Tonichelle]

Re: Johnny vs Evan

I personally thought it could have gone either way. Johnny didn't skate that program anywhere NEAR what he skated at Nationals, and understandbly so as he's injured. However the program looked very sloppy as it went along.

Evan was off on 3(?) jumps but held the program together. I don't really like this program (does anyone not think of Kurt Browning when this music comes on? LOL) but I think he skated just a bit better--more energy etc--than Johnny

but it could have gone either way in my book... and I'm glad it went Evan's way

 

[emma]

I bearly go there with all those crazy smilly the page took just too long to load.
Fans there not as skating educated here or any other english boards ie. FSU, MKF but they conduct much more civil discussions, sounds like most college student. They like veriaty skaters not perticular their own. Mostly the foreign skaters and some are Russian skaters.

Just talk about my own impression about the PCS scores. IMO, generaly Jeffery deserve his higher PCS scores than Li. But not Brian's PCS scores. Just like you said, Brian got rewarded the PCS scores for his jump ability, but Li's jump ability diddn't get the same reward in PCS score.

Take SS for instance (since it is technicall related can be disscussed more objectively) one of the basic skating skill stroking, both Jeff and Li sink down to the knee, since Jeff spin better centered and other MIF connection so his higher SS than LI is adjusted. But what Brian? IMO his higher SS is unjustable.

Even under 6.0 I felt Li was undermarked at presentation marks. The interpretation of music, Li's SP --GongFu?-- is perfectly interpreted, IMO. But since this is related to chinese cutural, not the main stream in skating cutural anyway, so no judge appreciated or understanded (Dick Button did understand at 2003 worlds?). Again its matter of taste in judge. Born as Chinese you want to play western game then play with western style. Just like chinese pairs, I read some poster imigrated from Russia, who posted at IFS board that top chinese pair S/Z's style couldn't be more Russian. Although they are still dissed in some Russian boards.

Just wanted to agree here. I had a really hard time understanding Li's marks...now I'm thinking he really gets marked down unfairly.

I am really happy for Lambiel, love his skating, had him in 3rd last year....so this is great for him; and Buttle is a brilliant skater too (love his choreo, artistry, positions); but that skate was far from perfect, can't wait to see him do even better. Same with Weir...I'm still debating in my head whether he should have ended up in 3rd or 4th....i'm wondering if not being in the final flight was a factor after all.

 

[clairecloutier]

I really feel that Johnny was very undermarked in the long, especially compared to Evan. I know the program wasn't his best, but the fact remains that, aside from the footwork fall, Johnny had no outright mistakes. Evan, on the other hand, had several obvious and very noticeable mistakes on the jumps. And even when Johnny is not on, his artistry is miles ahead of Evan's, in my book anyway. I think Evan has a lot of potential and promise, but I feel he needs to improve in a number of areas. Johnny, on the other hand, is a truly exceptional skater with masterful flow, edging, and artistry. I understand Evan was ahead of Johnny coming into the long, and I have no problem with that. But I do have a huge problem with the fact that Evan actually placed higher than Johnny *in* the long. That is shocking to me. And I feel it probably happened due mostly to skating order. Evan had the good fortune to skate last, whereas Johnny was buried earlier in the draw. I'm just very disappointed in the outcome.

I also can't understand why Jeff Buttle scored as highly as he did. Normally I'm a huge fan of Jeff's, but he just didn't skate well in the long. Not only did he have the two falls, he also just seemed flat, cautious, and uninspired to me. My husband agreed. His scores seemed extremely high for the program he delivered.

Overall it was sort of an odd competition. Lambiel was the one bright spot. It was really great to see him skate as well as he did. Despite the popped/singled jumps, his program had a lot of energy, emotion, and sparkle to it, not to mention those incredible spins. And it was kind of nice to see a real upset winner at Worlds; we haven't really seen that for a while. Good for him!

Looking forward, I just hope and pray that Weir and Plushenko can get healthy for the Olympics next year. If I were their coach, I would urge both of them to skip the Champions tour, take 2 months off starting immediately, and check into a rehabilitation/spa/physical therapy center. And, in Plushenko's case, to immediately schedule the long-overdue knee surgery. I so much want to see both of them back next year healthy and skating well!

 

[brad640]

This was an unbelievable final. I’m still trying to comprehend what happened with COP, but overall I think the result seems fair. One thing I realized is how critical it is to attempt the maximum 7 jumping passes and the maximum 3 combinations in the LP. All three medalists did that and it helped them come out on top in the point totals.

Plushenko: Once he was out, it was like no one knew how to react, and the level of competition dropped off. It was devastating to see him withdraw, because he has competed through injury so many times before. It must have been really bad for Mishin to allow him to withdraw. I partially blame Mishin for Plush’s injuries, because Mishin has driven his skaters to career-ending injury before as with Urmanov, and seemingly learned nothing from his mistakes. I’m relieved that Russia kept 2 spots for Torino and I hope Klimkin comes back next season.

Stephane: Without a doubt the very best, and deservedly won every phase. I hope Plushenko is healthy for the Olympics so it will be a true showdown between the two of them. I am so glad Stephane finally rose to the top. Other skaters should follow his example and allow themselves to heal and then work hard to train and come back. His King Arthur was not as polished since he just started working on it after Euros, but I think he made the right choice by ditching the Truman Show. The Spanish Caravan short program was a true gem and his spins are magic on ice.

Jeff: After the two falls I thought he would be off the podium, and I was skeptical at first, but I really think he earned the silver. Jeff invested so much of himself in laboring over the new system and it paid of for him in the end. He is a scholar of COP and he skated this competition with his intellect, and didn’t need the quad after endless speculation. Although he fell, he rotated the jumps first, he did the maximum number of jumping passes and combinations and put everything he had into the whole program. He found ways no one else thought of to increase the points. I think everyone is going to be dissecting his programs over the summer to get ready for the Olympics, and David Wilson is going to be in high demand.

Evan: Was anyone else surprised at how well the judges received him in the first 2 phases when Plushenko and Joubert were still in contention? I felt Weir and Buttle were unfairly disfavored early on, but surprisingly they loved Evan. The matador SP was nothing special, but it was a good strategy for him to stick with something reliable. He added several upgrades to Singin in the Rain in the spins and jumps that helped balance out the mistakes on the second axel and the loop.

Johnny: Deserved 4th place, and made a good comeback to get there, although hopefully he learned from his COP mistakes. Rondo and Otonal have been good programs, but I hope he comes up with something different for next year. I think he is still skating with his Dallas disaster in the back of his head and that is keeping his skating from moving to the next level.

Eman: 3rd in the LP with a great performance. People have criticized him for being a diva, but he came through as a team player and secured 3 spots for Canada in Torino. I hope Shawn Sawyer gets a triple axel by then and makes the team.

Kevin VDP: I’m so glad he went back to Robin Hood. I loved that music when Katarina used it in 94, and Kevin was amazing in the LP. The 3a3t and 2nd 3a were great, and even with a hand down on the 3-3-3, he really set himself apart. I’m really surprised Evan beat him in the free program, but I was impressed that he pulled up from 12th after the short to 5th in the free. Does anyone know why Belgium would not send him if he finished below 12th? I also heard Israel wouldn’t send Roman Serov if he ended up below 16th. Are those just arbitrary numbers chosen by the federations, or is there an ISU rule?

Li: I agree with soogar and mzheng about Li being unfairly marked down, especially in comparison to Joubert. I think Li skates with great power and conviction, where Joubert has no vision for his programs. That said, I think Li is nowhere near his potential, and I think he needs to work with a skilled COP choreographer to put together programs he believes in that also serve him well with the points.

Medalist Meltdowns: After Joubert and Lindeman finished 2-3 last year at worlds and this year at Europeans, I thought they would at least have decent showings, but what a disaster. I really think Joubert does not enjoy skating anymore and is only keeping at it because he likes the celebrity. I remember liking his clock SP, but he really lost his way this season. Both of his programs were awful, and he seemed like he didn't care. I enjoy Lindeman's skating and I thought he redeemed himself in the LP.

I also enjoyed the first half of Ivan Dinev's LP, both of Jamal Othman's programs, and Takahashi's footwork.

 

[indiaskye1]

Sk8n Mama: You say ... "I've never, myself, bought into the Johnny Weir lovefest. Maybe it's being Canadian. His artistry seems like he's trying too hard."


Trying too hard? Where exactly is Johnny trying too hard? If you ask me he is the only skater out there with whom it always seems like his skating comes from the inside!!!
He never seems to care about the judges but instead looks like he's just skating for himself .... that puts him ahead of all the rest. Because that is something you either have or you don't ... you can't learn it.
I agree that Jeff Buttle has a similar quality, too, but on a good day Weir should still beat him by a mile. Yes, Worlds wasn't "a good day" for Weir, and yes, I know that he fell in the SP ... but shouldn't artistry be rewarded more?
I agree with the person who said that it's "Figure Skating" not "Figure Jumping" ... jumps aren't everything.
So my opinion remains ... Weir should have won the Bronze.

I'm just glad to see that there are so many people out here who agree with me that the men's podium (apart from Stephane Lambiel) was a major screw-up this year.

Vanessa

 

[Ogre Mage]

Jeff vs. Johnny

I am a big fan of both guys and I think I can see things objectively:

Jeff: 8 jumping passes, 2 combinations, 1 sequence, 2 falls
Johnny: 7 jumping passes, 1 combination, no falls.

Johnny gave up big points by skipping a jumping pass and fewer combos relative to Jeff. Jeff fell twice but his attempts were fully rotated. Remember, this is CoP, not 6.0

Both men have wonderful choreography and great presentation. But tonight Johnny looked off his game. He had a big stumble on his footwork and his spins were slow and kinda sloppy. I think he looked like he was skating on top of the ice, not into it. In contrast, Jeff's spins, footwork and MITF were all outstanding.

Johnny was not skating in the final flight of the LP. Jeff was, and we know the judges still like to hold back for the final group. It may not be fair, but that's the way it is.

Johnny gave a gutsy and great performance considering his injury. Had he been 100% healthy, I believe he would have beaten Jeff because normally Johnny is a superior jumper, especially on the 3axel. As much as I love Jeff, the jumps are his weakness and the mistakes he made aren't that unusual for him.

Evan scoring higher than Johnny is more "iffy" for me, but I don't feel like dissecting that here.

 

[JayneKR]

Evan

This comment is a bit late, but I'll make it anyway. I saw Evan live at Nationals, and he projects a lot of vitality and personality that doesn't comes across on TV. He really is an "entertainer". I can see him eventually following in Kurt Brownings shoes in a way, doing entertaining programs. I'm sure his PC marks are influenced by that factor. The audience in Portland loved him.

 

[Rgirl]

So many interesting analyses. Of course I have to go with my own feelings. To save you all another extensive post, they are very close to Brad640's opinions.

I love Johnny Weir's skating. Something about him and his skating moves me. But ITA with the person who said that especially with "Otonal," when Weir is off, it loses a lot, which probably is more evident live than on TV--just my guess. Weir was injured and said he didn't feel well, so my guess is he was happy enough to just get through these Worlds with a respectable 4th.

Lysacek still "skates young" to use a Scott Hamilton phrase, but he's grown on me since Nationals. Vitality, yes. Much like Ilia Kulik, noooooooo way. But that's not a diss. Evan has his own qualites to develop and if he handles this 3rd place finish right, I can see him doing very well. Actually, I agree with Peggy (for a change, lol) that Evan has a style reminiscent of Robin Cousins.

As for Li and the issues about Chinese culture, I can't comment on these Worlds because friggin' ESPN didn't show Li. How's that for cultural bias? Of course, ESPN didn't show A LOT of skaters, no matter where they were from. In the past, Li has started out strong and then run out of gas. But in the future, Li's scores relative to his performances and construction of his programs are something I will definitely watch for.

There's always been cultural biases in FS judging and because of the subjective element in FS judging, no scoring system is ever going to get rid it. The best we can hope for is an International FIGURE Skating Union that keeps careful watch over the judging trends and makes a serious effort to stop abuses.

Having said that, I have no quarrel with the men's results. I've loved Lambiel since he was a pup and am thrilled to see a great spinner rewarded with gold.

I think Jeff Buttle's combinations of technical ability in every area except the quad and the consistency of his 3Axel, but I think he more than makes up for it with his artistry, interpretation of truly great choreography, and superb musicality.

Final comments on Weir and Lysicek--I think it's great that the US has two male skaters of such technical proficiency who are so different. I hope so much that Goebel can make a comeback, because if Tim can reach his former top form, the US men will be an amazing force to watch.

But Lambiel, Buttle, Lysacek--more than okay by me.

Rgirl

 

[Mathman]

Rgirl, I hope you do get a chance to analyze Li's performances. I would like to hear your perspective on the way he moves.

It is true that earlier in his career his presentation scores lagged behind his technical, and also he seemed to have stamina problems. But I don't think that is true any more. He was quite "dancy" in his exhibition number just now.

I am not a student of movement, but it seems to me that the "cultural bias" is about how men move their bodies in different parts of the world. To me, Chinese men do not move "sinuosity" like European men tend to. Asian performing art generally is more stylized and formal, or so it seems to Westerners. In both art and life, men in China do not shake their booties.

What do you think?

Mathman

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It seems we are all discussing the pros and cons of:

Plush v. Lambiel - They are so different and both are such qreat technicians, one has to make a choice. Even breaking it down into categories: jumps, spins, footwork, all those component things, to be an honest judge with no subjectivity, a judge could surprise himself.

Johnny v. Evan - It's not clear to me, that one is totally better than the other. My personal preference goes to Johnny, but Evan held his own out there in Moscow. Both of them should take Plush's advice and take a risk like Lambiel does.

Li - Poor guy deserves better judging although he has his faults.

And what is with our favorite Frenchman (Joubert) ? Can he get it together for the Olys along with Tim, Emmanuel, Gnazev, Stefan L., ?

We've only learned from this Worlds that Lambiel is competitive to Plush. No one else. Am I correct?

Joe

 

[mzheng]

We've only learned from this Worlds that Lambiel is competitive to Plush. No one else. Am I correct?

Joe

Yes. You are correct.
I love Lambiels style more. But feel Plush is a more deserve one and has his own style. Either one win with a great skating I would be happy for him.

On the side note, I think fans can be subjective and prefer different style whatever way they likes. But judges while theoritically should be objective and give out the marks without personal preference, especially under NJS with more detailed specification of each category. If they can't completely nueture then they should at least try their best to avoid personal preference in judgeing. In the old days Elvi Stojk was constantly being under marked just because his style was not the main stream style, and now Li. I'm not perticular like the style of either of them, but do recon they have good basical skating skills, ease of move on ice, speed and ice coverage, etc. wich should counted to the 2nd mark in OJS and PCS in NJS. But rarely they earned these mark they deserved from judges.

 

[Rgirl]

Rgirl, I hope you do get a chance to analyze Li's performances. I would like to hear your perspective on the way he moves.

It is true that earlier in his career his presentation scores lagged behind his technical, and also he seemed to have stamina problems. But I don't think that is true any more. He was quite "dancy" in his exhibition number just now.

I am not a student of movement, but it seems to me that the "cultural bias" is about how men move their bodies in different parts of the world. To me, Chinese men do not move "sinuosity" like European men tend to. Asian performing art generally is more stylized and formal, or so it seems to Westerners. In both art and life, men in China do not shake their booties.

What do you think?

Mathman

I too really hope to see Li soon, perhaps during the GP series, and then I'll be able to comment on the changes he's apparently made.

But as for Chinese men not moving with the sinuosity of European men, I say look at Hongbo Zhao and especially Jian Tong. Tong is one of the most sinuous and sensuous male skaters I've ever seen.

Without having seen Li at these Worlds, my guess is that it's not so much a matter of culture but rather of individual style that doesn't fit with the Western European, or in figure skating, to be specific, Russian balletic style that is the problem. Elvis Stojko had the same problem. Judges and people from European, Russian, and western cultures in general associate high levels of aesthetic movement or dance with the styles of those cultures. Even the Japanese seem to embrace a European movement style.

I do think the Chinese culture has been much less affected (infected?) by western culture, which perhaps gave Chiang Chang Li the opportunity to develop his own kind of "danciness," which the judges simply failed to appreciate, just as they did with Stojko for many years until the force of his determination, personality, and skating skills forced most of the judges to recognize that in movement aesthetics in figure skating, the concept of "different but equal" is not an oxymoron.

Can't say anymore because, unfortunately, ESPN didn't show Li. But I'll be looking for Li and how he's scored during the GPS, that's for sure.

Rgirl

 

[hongligl]

Anybody saw Li in the Gala? He was great in presentation. I guess nobody should say that his presentation is weak any more. He skated to a sound track of Chicago and he was sensational. He didn't do well with all his jumps(I recall only a couple of jumps in the program) but he grabbed the audience really tight and all the applauses! Good for him!

I too believe he's been undermarked. No, he is not in the top group in presentation, but should not by any means that low. Poor guy.

 

[mzheng]

Here ESPN diddn't shown Li's exhibition.

Rgirl, about the culture influence the style in skating. IMO, it related more to which style they studied in their trainning.

I belive chinese pairs trainning more of copy traditional Russian style, they started from watching pairs tape from Russian pairs. And I do believe morden china also has trainned some world class ballet dancers. Tong was original an ice dancer before training pairs, and they do send their pairs for ballet lessons. I would assume their ballet teachers would be from Peijing Ballet School, the one of the top Ballet School in China, the other one is in Shanghai. (Hongligl, correct me if I'm wrong. I assume by my earlier years experience in china). That's why their style looks more recognized in westernized eyes.

But Li properbaly more into traditional chinese marshal arts, just like Elvi Stojk's Japanese marshal arts. All Li's great performance are those he interpreting the traditional chinese marshall arts, If only you understand the traditional chinese marshall arts (WuShu) you'd appreciate Li's program, IMO, he truely transident the WuShu imagine on to the ice.

 

[mpal2]

I've only seen Li live at the 2003 Worlds. His free skate was very business like and unemotional. When he got to the exhibitions he was a totally different skater and I've had a soft spot for him ever since.

Is it just the competition nerves that hold him back and keep him from fully expressing what he is capable of?

For anyone who has seen him live more often, what is your impression?

 

[curious]

we have learned a men comp without the best skater is c**p. Lambiel is a very talented skater but he is going to have alot more pressure next year. If he wants to challenge plush he will have to skate at that level,it won't be easy.

 

[shine]

Yeah, why did they even bother continuing the competition after the SP. Afterall, Plush withdrew already :sheesh: