New Sasha journal ... 8/24/05

[Peggy]

I disagree that using music previously used for an EX number = re-using an LP. The elements and program layout will have to be completely different than the EX number based on the rules, and the points, etc. I don't believe anyone knows at this point if the cuts in the music will even be the same. And even if the cuts are very similar, who cares?


DG

I agree! I've never seen anyone skate to this version of Romeo and Juliet better than Sasha. Its the music I wanted her to choose and my guess is, it will become her signature music. I know this choice just sets her up for criticism for fans of other skaters but I can't wait to see what her and Nikoli come up with---I know it will be beautiful and competitive.

She will be criticized no matter what her music is-it will be either her dress or something else. All she really has to do is skate her best and let the chips fall where they will. I, for one, will hate it when she quits competing and gets on with the rest of her life from a purely selfish point of view.

 

[R.D.]

What makes you think that she won't be unnerved even with the overused (relative to herself repeated ad nauseum Dark Eyes)

I didn't say that she wouldn't be unnerved with the "overused" music. There's no way for us to tell or predict how she will feel at a certain comp. Nevertheless, it's not too much of a stretch to conclude that she is more comfortable with music that has been done before (or that SHE has done before). But, of course, going the safe route does not guarantee that you will be safe from making mistakes. Look at Kwan in 2002 Olys, Cohen basically at every Nationals and Worlds, etc.

Nothing much to that story, you too agree, Cohen is unwilling or unable to face an artistic or music challenge. She is taking the approach skate to avoid penalty. And even if she is skating to Dark Eyes for the first time it is a very boring piece of music that does not offer much challenge for interpretation.

Although I happen to agree to a certain extent, keep in mind that these are only our opinions here. It is not fact. Maybe (or definitely) she thinks that it's a wonderful piece to skate to (otherwise why choose it?), and some fans apparently agree. In other words, this is totally subjective.

I do believe you said in another thread no matter what Cohen skates to , she does not move you, or she comes across as totally cold???

You are absolutely right.


Peggy said:

She will be criticized no matter what her music is-it will be either her dress or something else. All she really has to do is skate her best and let the chips fall where they will. I, for one, will hate it when she quits competing and gets on with the rest of her life from a purely selfish point of view.

Well, any skater is subject to criticism, some more than others. But it's a general rule of thumb here. Nothing bad, no hating going on (in most cases), it's just what happens.

 

[gezando]

I agree! I've never seen anyone skate to this version of Romeo and Juliet better than Sasha.

Hmm. perfectly understandable, since you were the one who stated Cohen is a gift from God . But in the objective side of things, AP so far is the only skater who won world medal ( jr world title) with this piece. But of course she added Prokofiev's Cinderella to the R and J theme that made her program a whole lot more complex musically speaking. So for me actually R and J plus Cinderella is AP's signature piece and IMO AP skated better to this version of R and J than anyone so far

Its the music I wanted her to choose and my guess is, it will become her signature music.

She hasn't made this her signature yet, but R and J is slightly better than a Russian's equivalent or Row row row your boat, i.e. Dark Eyes

I, for one, will hate it when she quits competing and gets on with the rest of her life from a purely selfish point of view.

I know when Sarah retired, fans of other skaters will never forgive her

In other words, this is totally subjective.

Whether fans like or don't like a particular piece of music is subjective. But a piece like Dark eyes (I am sure some Cohen fans are drooling all over it) is musically lacking thematic complexity, or depth is objective

How complex is this

http://www.everythingdulcimer.com/tab/darkeyesdul.pdf

 

[Peggy]

I'm glad to hear other opinions and happy I can post my own.
Guess I'm just not complex but I know what I like and I like Dark Eyes and the way Sasha skates to it.
I didn't see AP's Jr medal performance nor have I heard anything about it. Does anyone have a video of it they can upload? I sure she did a beautiful job and I'm sure Sasha will too. We'll see who's signature music it becomes after this year.

 

[gezando]

AP brought life to R and J + Cinderella in her jr world gold medal performance, so far IMO Cohen had not bring any life to R and J. R and J is AP's signature piece :thumbsup:

Dark Eyes is good for Russian Gypsy (Roma) children to sing along in front of a camp fire just like row row row your boat is an excellent piece for children to sing along in front of camp fires here. As a competitive skating piece of music for an olympic year and skating to that for the 4th time, cautious and aversion to music risk does not even begin to describe Cohen's approach IMO

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Prokofiev" R&J with the right cuts would be a wonderful piece of music for any lyrical skater. I'm thinking of the balcony scene. The flashy bravura style of skating will not work with this unless the themes of the Mercutio/Tybalt duel are put into play.

Tim Goebel had a cut of Prokofiev's R&J and, he did a good job.

Joe

 

[R.D.]

As a competitive skating piece of music for an olympic year and skating to that for the 4th time, cautious and aversion to music risk does not even begin to describe Cohen's approach IMO

4th time? IIRC Cohen only performed it twice last year and I think she had it for an SP some time ago as well, but didn't get a chance to perform it. I think re-using it this year is justifiable. Whether or not the fans like the song is moot- the judges didn't seem to hate it last year. However, it's the LP- Romeo and Juliet- that has many people . She had this for an EX how many times? - 6? and is continuing to use it. I don't know if this is her last year or not (if she happens to win you bet it will be) but if she does the 2007 season, think she would continue to hang on to it?

IMO Cohen had not bring any life to R and J.

IMO Cohen does not bring life to any piece

 

[Rgirl]

Nina Rota's R&J theme is one of the most repetitive and boring piece of film music ever. IMO a good piece of lullaby music. IMO Corigliano's The Red Violin - Chaccone is so much more edgy and dramatic. In general I like Ennio Morricone as a film music composer much better than Rota.

Don't fall off your chair, but we agree -- on one thing. I do agree that Corigliano's "The Red Violin Chaccone" is a great, edgy, and dramatic piece of music, but not for competitive skating in today's conservative climate and recent judging changes. Love listening to "The Red Violin," but great listening music and great music for skating are two different things, IMO. (Same goes for dance, but we're talking skating.)

I also agree that Ennio Morricone is a magnificent composer, film and otherwise, from "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" to Adrian Lyne's "Lolita" to his collaborations with Yo Yo Ma. In fact, recently a skater asked that I send him music I thought would work well for skating. I immediately went to my Ennio Morricone collection (among those of many other composers), thrilled to have the opportunity to envision various cuts by Morricone edited together to make a great short or long program.

To my sad surprise, as much as I thought Morricone's music would work wonderfully for skating, edited of course, as a choreographer I found it lacking in strong thematic variation, overly repetitious, lacking in phrases for long edges, and, like most movie music, too obviously playing second fiddle (pun intended) to the drama on the screen. I sent Morricone's music to the skater anyway, but with a note saying that upon listening to it with a choreographic ear, it didn't seem as strong for skating as I'd originally thought.

I found Nino Rota's lesser known film scores, "Casanova" and "Orchestra Rehearsal," much more suited to skating, though I agree that his well-known circus-like Fellini scores bombed for every skater or skating team that used them except Rahkamo and Kokko.

As for Rota's R&J, and skating warhorses in general, I think the reason so many skaters and, lest we forget, skating choreographers, use them is that while they have qualities that make them weak listening music, at least for an expert like you, skaters can't have the music overwhelm their skating. The music has to complement a skater's style as well as the gliding, jumping, and spinning qualities of skating. Joe hit the nail on the head when he noted that even music that works for dance often does not work for skating because of the difference between blade on ice and foot on floor.

It's the rare skating choreographer who can find new music that works for his/her skater. Lori Nichol and Tarasova are the best I've seen whose choreography and choice of music, or edits in the case of TAT and Cohen's black-and-white "Swan Lake," has held up, more or less, over the last decade. But even these two have had their bombs with great skaters--they are human after all. IMO, it takes a unique ear and very special choreographic and kinesthetic sense to keep building with a skater the way Lori did with Michelle from '96 through '01 and Fumie since then. Not to mention having a sympatico with the skater and vice versa.

For example, I used to yearn for a skater to use Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" for a competitive LP. But after seeing dancer Molissa Fenley's solo to the entire symphony (Ya wanna talk endurance?! Oy!), I realized that as great as "Rite of Spring" is, it works for dance, but not for skating--at least IMO. (Hopefully a skater will prove me wrong someday.) My point is that I'm sure we can all think of music we could listen to all day that is complex, challenging, moving, and everything you could want in a serious piece of music that unfortunately would be incompatible with skating.

So I don't mind warhorse music; what I mind is warhorse choreography. The NJS hasn't been around long enough IMO to know if it will prompt the same old moves in order to get the maximum points or if skaters and their choreographers will alter familiar moves to create exciting, moving, and point-grabbing choreography -- with great skating technique as well, of course.

As for AP, I like(d?) her as a skater. I wasn't aware she had started competing again.

Rgirl -- First night without "6FU"; enough to make me break my vacation vows

 

[Rgirl]

Prokofiev" R&J with the right cuts would be a wonderful piece of music for any lyrical skater. I'm thinking of the balcony scene. The flashy bravura style of skating will not work with this unless the themes of the Mercutio/Tybalt duel are put into play.

Tim Goebel had a cut of Prokofiev's R&J and, he did a good job.

Joe

Joe, Did you ever see Kurt Browniing's self-choreographed "Mercutio" using Prokofiev's "R&J"? He did it at the Canadian Open about 1996. One of the greatest solo pieces of skating choreography I've ever seen -- and you know how rare it is for me to say something like that.

I saw Kurt at an SOI reception later that year and asked him about it. (Surprise, he LOVED talking about his choreography, lol.) He said he'd been very influenced by ballet since being with Sonja and had worked with one of the male dancers in the company on some things. Whatever Kurt did, it WORKED!

R

P.S. Red Dog -- Your avatar wins everything!!!

 

[Jaana]

Sun Valley event attendees -- do inform us how many times she falls.

It does not matter at all if she has a fall, doublefoots or singles a jump(s) in Sun Valley show or even in fall cheesefest or GP competitions. What matters and is of vital importance, is the fact that she needs to peak at the right time (in US Nationals and especially in Olympics). Early fall is no way a right time, LOL.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Joe, Did you ever see Kurt Browniing's self-choreographed "Mercutio" using Prokofiev's "R&J"? He did it at the Canadian Open about 1996. One of the greatest solo pieces of skating choreography I've ever seen -- and you know how rare it is for me to say something like that.

I saw Kurt at an SOI reception later that year and asked him about it. (Surprise, he LOVED talking about his choreography, lol.) He said he'd been very influenced by ballet since being with Sonja and had worked with one of the male dancers in the company on some things. Whatever Kurt did, it WORKED!

R

Unfortunately I did not see it RG (welcome back btw). I am not surprised, though. He is my all time favorite skater. He's at home with Mischa Barishnikov as well as Gene Kelly. I've never seen a skater with that much range. Without naming anyone (avoiding cans of worms) I know exactly how every skater I know will interpret whatever music they are using. With Kurt, it's always a surprise.

(Aside: Catch Wheeldon's American in Paris at the NYC Ballet. It's mostly Kelly's but he adds a few things to make it work on the stage. Great show.)

Joe

 

[emma]

Kurt does have incredible range combined with that unwordly ability to just deliver a great performance...truly amazing.

 

[R.D.]

P.S. Red Dog -- Your avatar wins everything!!!

Yeah- (thx BTW ) the funny thing about it is that a topic came up during some discussion and Mathman posted some pictures, and one of those pictures had the RD logo on it. It was also a perfect size for an avatar, so I decided to crop that part of the image, asked how to get a custom avatar, and here it is. hehe...

 

[gezando]

4th time? IIRC Cohen only performed it twice last year and I think she had it for an SP some time ago as well

She used DE as a competitive program in the 97 - 98, 00- 01, and last season, therefore it will be her 4th time in 05 - 06. If she is not capable or wunwilling to do something more complex than the Russian equivlent or row row row your boat, then she got to do what she got to do. Cohen's music interpretation skills as a skater is average compare to the other top tier ladies, she is not Lu Chen

 

[gezando]

Corigliano's "The Red Violin Chaccone" is a great, edgy, and dramatic piece of music..... Love listening to "The Red Violin," but great listening music and great music for skating are two different things, IMO. (Same goes for dance, but we're talking skating.)

You are responding to my response to jesslily. I was posting jesslilly who said the Red Violin is a depressing piece of music, and she doubt anyone likes to listen to it

As for Rota's R&J, and skating warhorses in general, I think the reason so many skaters and, lest we forget, skating choreographers, use them ....... skaters can't have the music overwhelm their skating.

I agree, some music overwhelm and swallow the skaters, e.g. Maria Callas (at least I thought that was Callas singing to One Fine Day) that totally swallowed Cohen in her 2000 exhibition. Another example is S&P skating to Tristan und Isolde. ( Tristan und Isolde is powerful, sensual, historically significant the musicologists wrote volumes just on the Tristan chord) Even though they won a world gold with it, I thought they did not skate up to par with Wagner's greatness. That does not mean I want skaters / choreographers to quit trying to come up with that one piece that fit the skaters technically and challenge them artistically. Lu Chen's Butterfly lovers VC, and Ota's Japanese drum music 2 seasons ago come to mind.

The music has to complement a skater's style as well as the gliding, jumping, and spinning qualities of skating.

Generally agree. IMO olypympic skating is a sports, but many posters here at GS are saying that skating is half art half sports, so I follow up that line of thinking and IMO an artistic skater should challenge himself or herself by demostrating musical versatility in their competitive programs

So I don't mind warhorse music

Musically speaking, I don't care for the warhorses, so if a skater butchered up the war horses with their skating, no loss to me. I do mind when a skater butchered up one of my favorite pieces of music.

repeating choreography

I am voting for Irina for oly gold, I don't care if she quintuple beillman her way through it, beillman spins, beillman spiral, beillman jumps. Nothing wrong with repeating choreography. I wonder how many beaver cleaver repeats will be done by Cohen

Campbell competition is here already???

 

[gezando]

Prokofiev" R&J with the right cuts would be a wonderful piece of music for any lyrical skater.

Joe

You have been generally classifying skaters as lyrical or bravura (like dancers are classified??) That is a bit interesting. For me an artist ( at least a concert pianist e.g. ) is capable of a wide range of performance style from lyrical to bravura and all shades in between. In order to achieve this artistic ideal, they are willing to face the challenge and try. I remember Rene Flemming who took over a year to practice and prepared herself to record an album of bel canto arias because she was had generally shy away from the bel canto repertoire

 

[R.D.]

so if a skater butchered up the war horses with their skating, no loss to me. I do mind when a skater butchered up one of my favorite pieces of music.

...then you can just tune the skater out and listen to the song. That's what I did during Kwan's "Fallin" exhibition. I do like that song. And I also like Bolero.

I am voting for Irina for oly gold, I don't care if she quintuple beillman her way through it, beillman spins, beillman spiral, beillman jumps. Nothing wrong with repeating choreography. I wonder how many beaver cleaver repeats will be done by Cohen

about the biellman comments. But, as I recall, I think Cohen only does the so-called "beaver cleaver" move once in a program, typically at the end of the routine (?) . Whereas Irina does the Biellman at least 2-3 times. I think once she even hit 4

 

[R.D.]

On the topic of skaters "challenging" themselves to try "original" music, I'd like a few posters with a history of skating knowledge to enlighten me as to the rare ones who have done this. (Forget Kwan in the late 90s, BTW- I know that. But who else).

 

[gezando]

...then you can just tune the skater out and listen to the song. That's what I did during Kwan's "Fallin" exhibition. I do like that song. And I also like Bolero.

Everyone responds to that different, and handles that differently. I love Mendelssohn's E minor Violin Concerto and Cohen butchered it and ruined it for me for a long time. I can not just listen to it, because she or her team butchered the editing of the piece too

But, as I recall, I think Cohen only does the so-called "beaver cleaver" move once in a program

Well I have seen Cohen in competitions, she beaver cleavers herway onto the exhibition ice. Besides IMO Beillman looks much nicer than beaver cleaver.

 

[R.D.]

She used DE as a competitive program in the 97 - 98, 00- 01, and last season, therefore it will be her 4th time in 05 - 06. If she is not capable or wunwilling to do something more complex than the Russian equivlent or row row row your boat, then she got to do what she got to do. Cohen's music interpretation skills as a skater is average compare to the other top tier ladies, she is not Lu Chen

I meant how many TIMES she's actually SKATED the song in competition, NOT how many SEASONS she's used it!

I agree, it's four seasons, and that's a lot (or at least it sounds like it is). But how many times has she actually PERFORMED the piece in competition?