2017 Ondrej Nepela Trophy Ladies SP

[tars]

At this point, I'll take Zagitova and Honda any day over Medvedeva. :con3:

This needs to happen in February. :agree2:

 

[WeakAnkles]

I can't for the life of me see what everyone is so in love with Medvedeva about on PCS. Give her the tech scores, but she clearly does NOT deserve such high PCS. She goes through the motions, without any depth of genuine feeling and artistry. It's all studied and OTT. At least she's toned down some of the histrionic drama and choreo, but that exaggerated breathing nonsense at the end has to go.

...

I just don't think that Med deserves to casually skip rope and 'Rippon-lutz' her way to an OGM with angsty, non-genuine, exaggerated expressions and faux gasping for air. Please deliver us from teeny-bop Lolita-land in ladies figure skating!

Well I just watched the SP after absolutely refusing to watch any of her performances from last year.

This pretty much sums her up for me: "It's all studied and OTT."

I think that's why I can admire her obvious talent--the technique is A1++- but be completely and utterly unmoved by her performance. Emotionally, there is no there there.

I'd be curious to know how close this is in terms of program construction to previous SPs. The choreography feels recycled to me. She is certainly thrifty, this one: why buy new when you can reuse the old, right?

 

[Seruleane]

I think Lena should stop doing the illusion spins and then it would look so much better. Hoping for a better performance in the free, but I'm really nervous for her.

Agreex100!! No one but Adelina should do illusion spins...does any other lady do them well? I was hoping Buyanova could share Adelina's secret with Lena, but I guess not.
Overall, crushed to see Lena so disappointed. I was really hoping for a rebound this season...still hoping for it.

 

[lanark]

I can't for the life of me see what everyone is so in love with Medvedeva about on PCS. Give her the tech scores, but she clearly does NOT deserve such high PCS. She goes through the motions, without any depth of genuine feeling and artistry. It's all studied and OTT. At least she's toned down some of the histrionic drama and choreo, but that exaggerated breathing nonsense at the end has to go.

At this point, I'll take Zagitova and Honda any day over Medvedeva. :con3: But I would prefer to see some ladies who've actually lived a little to prevail overall at the Olympics, i.e., Gabby Daleman, Kaetlyn Osmond; even Mirai Nagasu, and Satoko if she was healthy, as well as Carolina K (if she had the full tech complement, which she doesn't these days). In lieu of Med, I'd even root for a boffo Pogorilaya if she isn't flopping all over the ice. Sadly, Radionova, has not fully lived up to her late junior/ early senior days hype. Even Mai Mihara is way more interesting than the over-rated Med.

I just don't think that Med deserves to casually skip rope and 'Rippon-lutz' her way to an OGM with angsty, non-genuine, exaggerated expressions and faux gasping for air. Please deliver us from teeny-bop Lolita-land in ladies figure skating!

I also don't know what's all the hype with Medvedeva's "artistry". Like, she has improved a lot, I'll giver her that, but still not anywhere close to deserve these crazy scores.

I'm not surprised though. I'm expecting judges to give around 85 in the OG. I'll be surprised if they don't. And I'll be even more surprised if she skates clean and gets 80 points or less. The score inflation will only rise, imo.

Also, can she get another choreographer??? All of her programs look and feel the same. It's the same slow tempo type of music, the same open mouth wide open eyes thing, the same "conceptual" program that no one understands without googling it. Thank God she's improved her expression a bit. But still, the generic choreo isn't helping.
She has so much potential, why not do something completely different? A completely different style? Specially with the backloading, you need great choreography to keep people from sleeping during first half of the program.

Now, about technique. Is she consistent? The most. But her combinations are just so slow. It's not like, first jump, second jump. It's like, first..... jump.............. second......... jump. You know? Very muscled. And she actually has improved them, it was even slower before. Her Tanos are also looking better.

She really deserves to win, I just wish judges weren't going nuts with the scores.

But congrats to Medvedeva and I hope she does well with her FS!

 

[thegreendestiny]

First off, I think they need to change the cameraman who's doing a terrible job.

Second, I love that it's just Medvedeva's first skate of the season and already so many lives are affected, from delight to near-ruin.

 

[Leonardo]

flight of the soul and show its purity

Thanks. Imho, no theme would be better than this theme, because that would mean no weird breathing and no weird ending. The program is so pretty and the skater is so good, why why why ruin it with weird stuff

 

[MaiKatze]

First off, I think they need to change the cameraman who's doing a terrible job.

Second, I love that it's just Medvedeva's first skate of the season and already so many lives are affected, from delight to near-ruin.

Evgenia is the Shoma of the Ladies.

For me nothing is ruined. It was obvious that this would happen. As if we didn't see it all coming. We're entering the most boring Olympic Season of all time. At least the Men bring a bit of excitement.

And, weee, for Rika. Hopefully she can snag a silver. Love Elena, and think this downfall is tragic. We've seen this, so it is nothing new. Our commentators said last season that they don't believe that Elena will ever have the successes she had before. Heartbreaking to think she probably won't make it. :sad21: Unfortunately it shows on her face, too. She was always such a firecracker, passionate and it seemed the joy came from her heart. Now it just seems forced and pained. She's not happy.

 

[Lily flowers]

Agreex100!! No one but Adelina should do illusion spins...does any other lady do them well? I was hoping Buyanova could share Adelina's secret with Lena, but I guess not.
Overall, crushed to see Lena so disappointed. I was really hoping for a rebound this season...still hoping for it.

I'm still hoping too. She was nowhere near this shape at this point last season. She is obviously working harder which would explain the disappointment.

 

[Ender]

Evgenia is the Shoma of the Ladies.

For me nothing is ruined. It was obvious that this would happen. As if we didn't see it all coming. We're entering the most boring Olympic Season of all time. At least the Men bring a bit of excitement.

And, weee, for Rika. Hopefully she can snag a silver. Love Elena, and think this downfall is tragic. We've seen this, so it is nothing new. Our commentators said last season that they don't believe that Elena will ever have the successes she had before. Heartbreaking to think she probably won't make it. :sad21: Unfortunately it shows on her face, too. She was always such a firecracker, passionate and it seemed the joy came from her heart. Now it just seems forced and pained. She's not happy.

Medvedeva has same weaknesses in her jumps like many ladies, so in a way it's not entirely unfair when other ladies have same technique issue like her.

While among top men, only Uno has his weaknesses in the pre-rotation and packed 2 foot skating that judges desperately try to ignore.

Back to Medvedeva, I would say it's quite boring and monotonous but given what her team gave us last season this is a good program by their standards? And since when ladies don't skate to soft lyrical music and be some pretty princess? I don't see any problem with this program.

 

[NoNameFace]

some random thoughts...

very happy for Rika - looking realistically, there is no much of a chance for her to make that Olympic team of 2 Ladies with what other Japanese Ladies are doing, but it's just plain good to see her not giving up on skating and performing her programs like she did yesterday. Coming off from weaker season/injury problems or with relatively weaker content than her compatriots does not make her any less valuable competitor in my opinion. She looked beautiful in that dress and make-up (I love her statuesque beauty in general, so that is biased probably) and stood focused and confident in her performance. As I posted earlier there, I do believe that it was a good, solid starts, a base to build on further as season will progress. I like this program for her a lot - yes, 'O Fortuna' is a big piece, but I feel like choreography is doing a good job to both highlight the music and Rika's way of movement. There are of course some areas of improvement (more speed, more attack, more control in movement, overall sharpness), but I am glad to see Rika determined and competition-ready, definitely better than last season. There is a kind of fierceness and a performer's quality I just adore

Dabin moved me really strongly - I think that the emotional layer is now 'overpowering' the whole performance, but I do believe that she's capable to build it up into something strong and special. I think that if she would be able to capitalize on what she achieved last season, she'll be fine. I hope this boot problems will go away quickly and she will perform that 3-3 combo she's fully capable off. For me, there is already a quality of performance there, just more polishing, strengthening and confidence is required.

I am just sorry for Elena - and saying that, I think that there is no need to even feel disappointed by us, fans, because Elena is surely the most disappointed person herself. It kind of looks like for me that her body speaks a different language than her mind and intention in regards to the performance - she wants it badly, but the force, the body is not yet fully there. For me, it really spoke for itself that she looked visibly relieved after all jumps were over, she truly came into her usual sassy self, full of spark and determination; all before that looked like a hard work, laboured and chore-like. I love her personality on ice, the way she engages with music, audience, but somehow the wholesome of performance feels tensed, nervous and tight in reception, whereas it should look sassy, effortless and cheeky to do its kick. I'm afraid that this state will continue until she'll have more control over technicalities, more speed, sharpness on spins etc. - she just has to have a certain level of confidence in technical side of her performance to let it look more relaxed and flow-y. This is her first international outing this season, so I do think that there were nerves to be expected - I hope she'll work hard on improvements to shine more and more brightly in general as she got us used to see.

As for Evgenia - I do think that this SP is doing its trick, is impactful and effective, it showcases her skills/abilities, there is no denying that. But myself, I am not sure if I am a fan of how the program presents her skill - please note that this is just my subjective feeling solely about the package: choreography, musical arrangement, concept presented (I am far uneducated, with no knowledge to opine about jumps, technique of them etc.). The biggest issue I have is probably about those effects introduced in musical arrangement of Chopin's Nocturne - it's very disturbing for a big Chopin fan I am and kind of ruins the harmony and pure beauty of the music itself for me; I have no doubt Evgenia could carry and take the music as it is, with no 'embellishments' connected with the idea behind program (I will get to that point later), and still produce an impactful performance, I really wonder how it would look like. But then, the whole concept/idea of the program would require amendments, as musical additions are strongly correlated with it and with choreography parts. I do get and understand actually the whole musical arrangement-program concept-choreography design linkage - it is all working towards the envisioned, planned effect, but I do wonder how the program could look like and feel like without such imposed and 'heavy-handed' concept surrounded it, without those musical effects. Saying that, my wish would be to see Evgenia with competitive program more like her exhibitions - less of schooled, programmed concept of a program, more of playing on the theme, vibe of music, but as I said - those concepts of her competitive programs, expression envisioned for them makes sense for her, for her team, for the purpose of using them, regardless if I like them or not. Going into choreography a bit, I understand that there is a strive for difficulty, backloading etc. and all of that has to be accommodated within program, but - again - my perception gets more focused on those technical connections thorough the program than the performance as a whole, seeing more Evgenia in it behind those moves, skills. It's just the point for me where this desired difficulty in everything becomes the centrepiece, the main attention point to focus on and I lost other aspects like connection with music, expression in the process. I would like to see Evgenia with other choreographer's work for competitive program, but saying that - I see that her 'signature' somehow was developed along with Averbukh choreography and I accept that she's some kind of 'muse' for him probably. These are just my personal observations after watching the program and I do know that my liking/wishing means nothing and it's nowhere important as the results.

 

[Elsie]

Given the weakness of the other skaters in this competition it's no surprise to see Medvedeva in first position, and she deserves it. However, that monstrous score is totally unjustified. In the past, ladies who jumped a triple axel and a lutz (a real one!) in their short program and who had much better skater skills and no pre- or under-rotations never received scores as high as Medvedeva's (Tuktamysheva only got 78 something and that was 4 triples total including a perfect triple axel which in itself is worth 5 points more than Med's weak double axel), so you have to wonder what's really going on here. The first half of the program is boring as hell, and she's barely covering any ice and has little speed. The bonus points for backloading don't make sense to me since her first half is almost non existent in terms of real skating, and the balance is completely lost. I'm not even talking about the fact that she delivers almost exactly the same program year after year. Sure, it all looks pretty, the music is lovely and her dress is amazing. But that's not what should be judged here.

I've noticed on this forum that whenever somebody criticizes Medvedeva, someone else will stand up for her and call her critics all sorts of names, so I'm kind of afraid to speak up. But clearly the judges are out of their mind. Put her in first position but be real for God's sake. This is not worth 80 points. Low 70s at best.

I keep thinking that Medvedeva's consistent over-scoring is giving her a huge mental advantage over her competitors. She knows that she will win every competition she enters, and that even with a fall or two she won't be beaten. The other skaters, however, are given the message that they will never even come close to Medvedeva, no matter how hard they try. No wonder the girl has no nerves. Why would she when it's already decided in advance that she'll win the whole thing?

I'm not entirely sure if this plays a huge role for someone's confidence but from my own experience I know that being confident makes me perform better in all the things that I do (not skating since I don't skate). That's why I wonder about Medvedeva's psychological advantage over the others. And she would not have this advantage, or not as much, if her scores were more realistic.

 

[atsumiri]

and here we are......

Indeed it isn't easy to be Evgenia's haters. You've just more or less recovered from her overwhelming win in WC and new season up))) with this wonderful powerful and nature performance. More cold water for burning bums, please!

 

[OS]

This boils down to the philosophical differences in viewing what a credible artistic sport should reward vs what it is currently over rewarding.

In life and in the profession, It is supposed to be more important to reward sparing moments of absolute brilliance, the peak of quality over any consistent mediocrity.

Substance and depth should be prized over features and superficiality.

Inconsistency should not be looked as a bad thing, since it is often the cost of taking greater risks, pushing what is possible. If you aim for the bullseye, you are likely to miss more.

In COP, however, since Vancouver leading up to Sochi, The Management of the sports lead by Russia Fed Lakernik made series of rule changes that heavily slant towards rewarding quantity over quality. In hind side, it is very probable because it is the only thing Russian juniors can compete on which is quantity over quality. It lessens the importance of artistry, good programs including originality and creativity is hardly rewarded. It relaxed the conditions for GOEs, reduced its value by 30%, reduce penalties for ! and <, increased 3T by 0.4 points and judges are encouraged to up their PCS and minimise the effect of gap differences due to the capped system.

It has happened for a while... and 8 years on, it produced the type of winning strategy and winning skaters with the sort of inflated scoring that does not match the performance and completed lobsided the field, with how things are and how things should be. It is a shame... because of for the ladies, it made the sport heavily favour youth (pre-growth spurt, uber flexibility, jumping beans) over maturity, experience and the importance of organic artistic and technical development and perfecting techniques. It almost seems like a form of establishment child abuse, make teens doing what adults should be doing taking advantage of the light frame, and when they reach adult and can no longer deliver what they are able used to do, just chuck them out and swap with the new one. In meantime discount any valid progress someone might have made artistically and technically. (Or at least it sure feels like it these days. )

 

[Elsie]

Why does objectively analyzing someone's program equal being a "Medvedeva hater" or whatever it is called now? Personally, I don't think it does (correct me if I'm wrong). Nor should someone receive unrealistically high marks simply for being consistent, because clearly Medvedeva's consistency is at least partially the result of consistently getting higher than deserved marks! It should be technically impossible to beat world records without a triple axel, without a quad, without a proper lutz, and with all your jumps being of mediocre quality (and even low quality for her axel). And yet Medvedeva beats world record after world record, and she's only getting started! And I don't understand why. I must be stupid then.

Nobody can deny this: Medvedeva hasn't brought anything new to figure skating except that amazing consistency (which I repeat is artificially aided by her never being called for mistakes or low quality jumps so she has no reason to worry or take risks, unlike the other skaters who are not favored by the judges). She can't even add new things to her own programs (except the rippon) and this is her third senior year already.

Those are facts, people. Call it "Medvedeva hating" or whatever. Winner? Yes. 80 points for this performance? Hell no!

 

[Elsie]

and here we are......

Indeed it isn't easy to be Evgenia's haters. You've just more or less recovered from her overwhelming win in WC and new season up))) with this wonderful powerful and nature performance. More cold water for burning bums, please!

That's precisely what I meant with being afraid of criticizing Medvedeva. I wrote one post about her in which I only described what I saw, and I'm already called a hater. If I'm a Medvedeva hater, what are you then? A blind Medvedeva admirer? And how is that better? Because they DO exist, you know. I mean blind fans who can't see any of her flaws.

I didn't know we had to take sides on this forum. Apparently, one has to be either pro or against skaters. It's black or white. Sorry, but I don't see it that way. I feel that I'm perfectly allowed to say that she was over-scored for this program, as usual. If we're not even allowed to say that, well, what's the point of these discussions anyway? Isn't that what this forum is for then?

 

[Ender]

and here we are......

Indeed it isn't easy to be Evgenia's haters. You've just more or less recovered from her overwhelming win in WC and new season up))) with this wonderful powerful and nature performance. More cold water for burning bums, please!

I like Medvedeva, but I wouldn't say her performance looks 80s. Though it has more to do with the system and human mentality not Medvedeva herself.
Judges give scores based on reputation and consistency isn't new. I can understand that somehow. It's a big deal to skate clean whole season. So in a way, it's not too unfair.

 

[jenaj]

That's precisely what I meant with being afraid of criticizing Medvedeva. I wrote one post about her in which I only described what I saw, and I'm already called a hater. If I'm a Medvedeva hater, what are you then? A blind Medvedeva admirer? And how is that better? Because they DO exist, you know. I mean blind fans who can't see any of her flaws.

I didn't know we had to take sides on this forum. Apparently, one has to be either pro or against skaters. It's black or white. Sorry, but I don't see it that way. I feel that I'm perfectly allowed to say that she was over-scored for this program, as usual. If we're not even allowed to say that, well, what's the point of these discussions anyway? Isn't that what this forum is for then?

Not a Medvedeva hater here. But that doesn't mean I have to like her backloaded programs. I would also note that the sport continues to move forward technically and Med is not doing the most difficult elements in her short program. Her technical score in the short is heavily dependent on the bonus, which I think is unwarranted in the short program. If it is significantly more difficult to do jumps--and worthy of a ten percent bonus-- after a minute and a few seconds in the short program, why does the bonus only kick in after two minutes in the long program?

 

[Elsie]

Not a Medvedeva hater here. But that doesn't mean I have to like her backloaded programs. I would also note that the sport continues to move forward technically and Med is not doing the most difficult elements in her short program. Her technical score in the short is heavily dependent on the bonus, which I think is unwarranted in the short program. If it is significantly more difficult to do jumps--and worthy of a ten percent bonus-- after a minute and a few seconds in the short program, why does the bonus only kick in after two minutes in the long program?

That's another thing. It is only more difficult to do all the jumps in the second half of your program if you're actually SKATING during the first half. Let's be honest, there isn't much actual skating in Medvedeva's programs before the part where she starts with the jumps. Am I the only who's seeing this then?

Medvedeva's way of collecting points is exactly what prevents the sport from advancing technically because it's precisely her technique that is the weaker part of her skating, and still she's being given higher marks than everyone else, including technical wonders such as Tuktamysheva (I repeat, 3 years ago she only got 78 for a short program with a magnificent triple axel and 3 other flawless triples, all of which were way better in quality than any of Medvedeva's jumps are).

I still don't see what's wrong with being critical of a skater when the criticism is justified. I wish people would stop putting all the forum members into either haters or lovers when it comes to Medvedeva. Let her jump a proper lutz and a triple axel or a quad and also add some speed and height in her jumps and I don't care less if she beats the world record. But not with backloading, tanos and senseless facial expressions, please.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Hypothetical OT Tangent:

I would favor Zhenya over Osmond on my score sheet based on their many well skated performances we've witnessed but in regards to both girls I don't think my scores for either would add up to over 72. Doesn't really matter though because there would be 8 more judges that would likely disagree and score them higher then me. Since that's how judging panels work I really don't get worked up over scores and have almost zero expectations of scores and them being exactly as I would award them


End OT Rant

 

[Anni234]

Nobody can deny this: Medvedeva hasn't brought anything new to figure skating except that amazing consistency (which I repeat is artificially aided by her never being called for mistakes or low quality jumps so she has no reason to worry or take risks, unlike the other skaters who are not favored by the judges). She can't even add new things to her own programs (except the rippon) and this is her third senior year already.

I'm sorry, but it's not like other ladies are constantly bringing something new to the sport and adding new things to their programs. It sounds like Med is lightyears behind other "innovative" skaters, which she is not. So I don't really see the reason of singling out Med in here.