World Junior pairs champs caught in age conundrum

[yume]

I wonder if ISU would be considering an exception if some of the teams affected by the new age rule were not top teams, especially worlds champions.
A whole organization not realizing that this would be one of the outcomes and not discussing this before the vote is surprising.

 

[Amei]

Good grief. Do you have any idea of how long it takes to develop a successful pairs partnership? It's not easy.

Elite sports is not supposed to be easy. 15-16 year old single skaters that have a technical arsenal that smokes their older competition are told they have to wait for their own good before turning senior and that if they really are "great" athletes that waiting those extra years shouldn't be a problem. the same can be said for these pairs skaters with large age differences (to the extent that 1 is Ineligible for seniors and the other is aging out of juniors), if they are great athletes/ skaters then changing to a more age appropriate partner shouldn't be a problem.

 

[icewhite]

Do you have any idea of how long it takes to find a compatible partner and then develop the pair as a successful team?

I have no intention to support the "pour Russians are discriminated against" agenda, but I also think that if you can't find a bunch of fitting pairs of pretty much the same age in big countries where the sport is popular the solution cannot be to have couples of kids and adults together.
If there really aren't enough couples, then the discipline is simply dead. So the feds and ISU either find a way to change the discipline or they better dig the grave already.
Yes, everyone in that situation, coaches or athletes, better don't make teams with age gaps which totally cross the underage/adult border.
I know there have been many successful and popular couples with big age differences in the past, but in my eyes the rules should look something like: If there is a minor involved the age gap should not exceed two years.

 

[el henry]

Well, those 15 years girls were Russians, so make a rule against them was "good and right".
But those 20+ guys are not Russians, so making them struggle because of such rule is "bad and wrong"

Overall i dont see real problem here at all. Pair cant go to seniors because of age of one of the partners? Then split that pair and put into it another partner. And claims that there "not enough" skaters for that are laughable. If federation cant find 2-3 skaters in whole country it is only their problem.

I see the majority of the posters here supporting the age limits and arguing against changing them to keep pairs together.

Making a rule raising the age limits that affects Americans, Russians and many other countries is indeed "good and right". And I, as an American, support those rules even when they affect skaters from "my" country.

No whining and crying about how "they're out to get me, they hate me" here.

 

[skatedreamer]

I have no intention to support the "pour Russians are discriminated against" agenda, but I also think that if you can't find a bunch of fitting pairs of pretty much the same age in big countries where the sport is popular the solution cannot be to have couples of kids and adults together.
If there really aren't enough couples, then the discipline is simply dead. So the feds and ISU either find a way to change the discipline or they better dig the grave already.
Yes, everyone in that situation, coaches or athletes, better don't make teams with age gaps which totally cross the underage/adult border.
I know there have been many successful and popular couples with big age differences in the past, but in my eyes the rules should look something like: If there is a minor involved the age gap should not exceed two years.

What bothers me is the possible negative effect on existing couples or either of the partners individually.

OTOH, applying new rules to new couples makes perfect sense and I agree that big age gaps are problematic on many levels.

A very young partner for an older man would seem to create an unfair advantage in terms of lifts and throws. Aside from that, a 14/15-year old girl skating with a much older partner (20-21?) certainly seems inappropriate; there's just too much potential for emotional and or psychological issues, even if the pairing seems otherwise ideal.

Bottom line: this issue is complicated and there are no easy fixes. I would love it if a reasonable way can be found to keep existing couples together but if that's not possible, the rules should be applied equally -- "without fear or favor."

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

I wonder if ISU would be considering an exception if some of the teams affected by the new age rule were not top teams, especially worlds champions.

I was wondering this also. If the teams affected were small fed teams who had placed 9th in their JGP events, I'm not sure an exemption would even be being discussed.

 

[moonvine]

Do you have any idea of how long it takes to find a compatible partner and then develop the pair as a successful team?

Probably not. And there are so many factors involved in teaming skaters up. And I don’t think it’s fair to take examples of skaters who have been abusive and say “since Coughlin (or whoever) was abusive Timmy must be abusive.” Any more than it’s fair to say “since some Catholic priests are abusive they must all be abusive.”

Ashley Wagner was 17 when she was assaulted by Coughlin and he was 22. I don’t think too many brows would be raised by a pair of those ages.

 

[moonvine]

I have no intention to support the "pour Russians are discriminated against" agenda, but I also think that if you can't find a bunch of fitting pairs of pretty much the same age in big countries where the sport is popular the solution cannot be to have couples of kids and adults together.
If there really aren't enough couples, then the discipline is simply dead. So the feds and ISU either find a way to change the discipline or they better dig the grave already.
Yes, everyone in that situation, coaches or athletes, better don't make teams with age gaps which totally cross the underage/adult border.
I know there have been many successful and popular couples with big age differences in the past, but in my eyes the rules should look something like: If there is a minor involved the age gap should not exceed two years.

Fortunately for the discipline I don’t see that happening ever.

 

[moonvine]

Elite sports is not supposed to be easy. 15-16 year old single skaters that have a technical arsenal that smokes their older competition are told they have to wait for their own good before turning senior and that if they really are "great" athletes that waiting those extra years shouldn't be a problem. the same can be said for these pairs skaters with large age differences (to the extent that 1 is Ineligible for seniors and the other is aging out of juniors), if they are great athletes/ skaters then changing to a more age appropriate partner shouldn't be a problem.

There is a lot more involved in putting pairs together than an “age appropriate partner.” Your 15-16 year old skater could continue to skate in juniors.

 

[skatedreamer]

Probably not. And there are so many factors involved in teaming skaters up. And I don’t think it’s fair to take examples of skaters who have been abusive and say “since Coughlin (or whoever) was abusive Timmy must be abusive.” Any more than it’s fair to say “since some Catholic priests are abusive they must all be abusive.”

Ashley Wagner was 17 when she was assaulted by Coughlin and he was 22. I don’t think too many brows would be raised by a pair of those ages.

Absolutely agree!

However, I also believe that going forward, rules should be made to decrease the risks. Minimizing the age gap between partners seems like a good place to start. I just hope that existing couples won't have to suffer because of it.

How horrible for Ashley. I didn't know about that, so googled for more details. John Coughlin was also accused of sexual abuse by 2 of his pairs partners: Bridget Namiotka and Melissa Bulanhagui. Both were around 14 when they began skating with him. Coughlin committed suicide in January 2019 after the USFSA put him on interim suspension. Based on that, I assume he must have had many problems but that doesn't excuse the abuse. It's heartbreaking all around...

 

[Amei]

There is a lot more involved in putting pairs together than an “age appropriate partner.” Your 15-16 year old skater could continue to skate in juniors.

And if pairs skaters want unhealthy and potentially dangerous age gaps they can skate domestically, as you've stated previously the US has no limits for these situations and other feds can make those same moves if they want to have them. The ISU shouldn't be encouraging through special rules partnerships of such significant gaps that 1 partner isn't senior age-eligible and 1 partner that is aging out of junior eligibility where there is already a very large eligibility window.

 

[surimi]

The ISU shouldn't be encouraging through special rules partnerships of such significant gaps that 1 partner isn't senior age-eligible and 1 partner that is aging out of junior eligibility where there is already a very large eligibility window.

I wish ISU had thought of this when creating the rule, not in hindsight. It's obvious the ineligibility rule is going to cost a handful of pairs more than the single juniors who cannot go senior, but will happily keep garnering points on JGP and other ISU-sanctioned junior competitions.
I wish that already existing pairs weren't forced to either split, after all the hard work and sacrifice they've done to get where they are, or to wait several years while dropping out of ISU rankings and having to start from scratch. I mean partnerships that existed before the age rules were put in place. As for the later pairups, the partners already knew what the deal was while teaming up. But this handful of pairs that are affected just because they got together and got a body of work done prior to the age rule they didn't know was coming... I wish ISU had considered them, and allowed them to skate in juniors, while applying the rule for all future pairings. Yes, it would be unfair to the junior boys, but there will always be someone who loses out in this situation; and these are only 3 known pairs if I count correctly, without a guarantee they'll stay together in the upcoming years.

 

[Ziotic]

Probably not. And there are so many factors involved in teaming skaters up. And I don’t think it’s fair to take examples of skaters who have been abusive and say “since Coughlin (or whoever) was abusive Timmy must be abusive.” Any more than it’s fair to say “since some Catholic priests are abusive they must all be abusive.”

Ashley Wagner was 17 when she was assaulted by Coughlin and he was 22. I don’t think too many brows would be raised by a pair of those ages.

As stated it’s not just about sexual abuse, but you kind of proved the wrong point.

Ashley was 17, still a minor but almost an adult and she was still assaulted and coerced into silence by and older authority figure??? Like this is what we want to make NOT happen and create situations where there is the least chance of this type of issue.

 

[moonvine]

As stated it’s not just about sexual abuse, but you kind of proved the wrong point.

Ashley was 17, still a minor but almost an adult and she was still assaulted and coerced into silence by and older authority figure??? Like this is what we want to make NOT happen and create situations where there is the least chance of this type of issue.

She was asleep in bed when it happened (not that that makes it ok- it doesn’t at all). but I’m pretty sure anyone can grope anyone when they are asleep in bed. She said she didn’t understand consent rules at that time. They were not paired so making arbitrary rules about the ages for pairs would not have helped her. Not sure how he was an “authority figure” to her. Just because he was older? I hope USFS has consent training now.

 

[skatedreamer]

I wish that already existing pairs weren't forced to either split, after all the hard work and sacrifice they've done to get where they are, or to wait several years while dropping out of ISU rankings and having to start from scratch. I mean partnerships that existed before the age rules were put in place.

yes, this.

 

[RUKen]

John Coughlin was also accused of sexual abuse by 2 of his pairs partners: Bridget Namiotka and Melissa Bulanhagui. Both were around 14 when they began skating with him.

Melissa Bulanhagui was not a pairs partner of John Coughlin's; she was a singles skater who trained at the same rink. She was quoted in a newspaper article after Coughlin's death about how he groomed her and other young skaters at the rink and described inappropriate touching. While checking on her connection with Coughlin, I learned that she has become a porn actress. I can't help wondering if she would have made that post-skating career choice if she hadn't been abused earlier.

 

[icewhite]

Of course it won't be possible to prevent all abuse by certain age rules. But there are situations and circumstances under which abuse is more likely to happen.

Adults need to take care of themselves. We need to give them all help they require if they get into situations they don't want to be in/ punish illegal behaviour, but it is their decision with whom they want to team up and we trust them to make the decision they find best. Minors are a different topic. They have to be protected by adults, that also means being careful about bringing them into situations which are more likely to lead to abuse. If it was just one such case it would be different. It is not. The system increases the likelyhood. It would be better to not have minors and adults together, and it would also be better if same sex couples were generally allowed and competitive, because at the moment there is a high chance that girls/women will keep up with a lot they don't feel comfortable with in order to be able to compete.

I am looking at this from a more outside perspective which might not make me the most empathic in some regards, but on the other hand it might not be so bad to look at it a bit more from the outside. Sometimes sports need serious changes in order to be ready for the future. For instance modern pentathlon has now abolished horseback riding and put "obstacle racing" in place past 2024, after riding (unknown horses) was deemed to abusive for the horses. That is a huge! change in that sport, but it was necessary.

Of course there is also a lot of abuse from for instance coaches, and other measures need to be taken as well. There is just so much power in certain hands, there is so much dependency in this sport and it should really make an effort to fight it where it is possible.

 

[moonvine]

Of course it won't be possible to prevent all abuse by certain age rules. But there are situations and circumstances under which abuse is more likely to happen.

Adults need to take care of themselves. We need to give them all help they require if they get into situations they don't want to be in/ punish illegal behaviour, but it is their decision with whom they want to team up and we trust them to make the decision they find best. Minors are a different topic. They have to be protected by adults, that also means being careful about bringing them into situations which are more likely to lead to abuse. If it was just one such case it would be different. It is not. The system increases the likelyhood. It would be better to not have minors and adults together, and it would also be better if same sex couples were generally allowed and competitive, because at the moment there is a high chance that girls/women will keep up with a lot they don't feel comfortable with in order to be able to compete.

I am looking at this from a more outside perspective which might not make me the most empathic in some regards, but on the other hand it might not be so bad to look at it a bit more from the outside. Sometimes sports need serious changes in order to be ready for the future. For instance modern pentathlon has now abolished horseback riding and put "obstacle racing" in place past 2024, after riding (unknown horses) was deemed to abusive for the horses. That is a huge! change in that sport, but it was necessary.

Of course there is also a lot of abuse from for instance coaches, and other measures need to be taken as well. There is just so much power in certain hands, there is so much dependency in this sport and it should really make an effort to fight it where it is possible.

What? How in the world is “riding unknown horses” abusive? It’s the way collegiate horse shows are run. Horses are provided by the host school and are drawn by lot. So the away team are all riding “unknown horses.”

 

[skatedreamer]

Melissa Bulanhagui was not a pairs partner of John Coughlin's; she was a singles skater who trained at the same rink. She was quoted in a newspaper article after Coughlin's death about how he groomed her and other young skaters at the rink and described inappropriate touching. While checking on her connection with Coughlin, I learned that she has become a porn actress. I can't help wondering if she would have made that post-skating career choice if she hadn't been abused earlier.

Yes, sorry for the inaccuracy. As for Melissa’s career choice, it’s distressing, regardless of the reason.

 

[TeamGubanova]

Skaters should not skate senior at 15. If that means there are no pairs, then there is something wrong with the pairs discipline. Fix what is wrong, don't change the age limits.

For me, a 14 year old skating with a 20 year old is jarring. Period. I also find watching Ellie and Danny to be jarring, as interesting as their skating can be. Sorry not sorry.

I do not believe in grandfathering skaters, but I suppose extra time in juniors could possibly be a resolution. I certainly do not want to see younger woman pairs skaters in seniors just because they might otherwise break up the pairing.

OMG They are not having sex or anything, just skating. Do you want every male pair athlete to get injured and the pair discipline to die off because no young team is gonna try it?