World Junior pairs champs caught in age conundrum

[4everchan]

What bothers me is the possible negative effect on existing couples or either of the partners individually.



Bottom line: this issue is complicated and there are no easy fixes. I would love it if a reasonable way can be found to keep existing couples together but if that's not possible, the rules should be applied equally -- "without fear or favor."

just wondering what you think of the fact that the existing couple knew, before the new rule, that they would sit out one year for sure. The age gap between them was always going to be problematic... Of course, the new rule is triggering a lot more conversation because of the 1 year becoming 3 years of sitting out... So, if there were an exception rule, should the ISU still make them sit out one year?

What would piss me off the most, is that a solution would allow these teams, always aware that the age gap was going to be problematic, get a better situation from an exceptional ruling, than what they had willingly signed up for (1 year sitting out)...

It's late... i am trying to be clear and I am ESL.. so forgive me if I don't make perfect sense

 

[Vemvane]

What? How in the world is “riding unknown horses” abusive? It’s the way collegiate horse shows are run. Horses are provided by the host school and are drawn by lot. So the away team are all riding “unknown horses.”

This is for the thread, and I am getting into the weeds here, but the argument was made, re the modern pentathlon debacle, that it was very difficult for the athletes to get on a strange horse and ride it well; this was supposedly why their jumping rounds were so awful. Fact of the matter was that modern pentathletes are terrible riders, unbalanced, hands reefing the horses in the mouth, being popped out of the saddle over fences and thumping on the horses' backs as they land, and wearing spurs when they have unsteady lower legs. I doubt that a familiar horse would have been ridden any better. Saint Boy was the horse that came to international attention at the last Olympics, but I remember London 2012, a pentathlete actually flipped the horse he was riding - they were in the start box, the bell went, the horse tensed and the rider got to pulling so hard that the horse not only scrambled backwards around the box, but reared three times, and on the third time, was pulled over backwards. And then, even though the horse had fallen, the rider was allowed to remount and ride the course, instead of being disqualified as he would have been in an FEI discipline.

To get back to the topic of the thread, my unprofessional and non-skating opinion is that large age gaps in junior pairs skating run the risk of developing unhealthy power dynamics, and that if skaters pair up knowing that the elder of the two will age out before the younger one is senior eligible, they are still bound by the rules and will have to sit out international competition, if they wish to stay together, and skate domestically, or split, if international competition is a priority. The minimum senior age was increased to protect minors from exploitation, and seeing very young teen girls skating with men approaching or in their early twenties makes me feel uncomfortable about the dynamics of that pair.

Yes, it is important for teenagers to interact with older people, and no, they shouldn't be wrapped in cotton wool while adults wring their hands and cry But what about the children? At the same time, a young teenager, regardless of sex, has a brain with a more developed limbic system, and which is more responsive to serotonin and dopamine - their decisions are more likely to be impacted by their emotions, their brains are sufficiently vulnerable to stress that experiences at this period of their lives can shape their long-term mental stress responses and mental health, and they assess risk differently from people at the end of adolescence. As adults, we have the responsibility of advocating for the safety of teenagers, and that can mean prioritising the well-being of a young person over potential pressure from an older partner who wants to compete.

 

[icewhite]

This is for the thread, and I am getting into the weeds here, but the argument was made, re the modern pentathlon debacle, that it was very difficult for the athletes to get on a strange horse and ride it well; this was supposedly why their jumping rounds were so awful. Fact of the matter was that modern pentathletes are terrible riders, unbalanced, hands reefing the horses in the mouth, being popped out of the saddle over fences and thumping on the horses' backs as they land, and wearing spurs when they have unsteady lower legs. I doubt that a familiar horse would have been ridden any better. Saint Boy was the horse that came to international attention at the last Olympics, but I remember London 2012, a pentathlete actually flipped the horse he was riding - they were in the start box, the bell went, the horse tensed and the rider got to pulling so hard that the horse not only scrambled backwards around the box, but reared three times, and on the third time, was pulled over backwards. And then, even though the horse had fallen, the rider was allowed to remount and ride the course, instead of being disqualified as he would have been in an FEI discipline.

To get back to the topic of the thread, my unprofessional and non-skating opinion is that large age gaps in junior pairs skating run the risk of developing unhealthy power dynamics, and that if skaters pair up knowing that the elder of the two will age out before the younger one is senior eligible, they are still bound by the rules and will have to sit out international competition, if they wish to stay together, and skate domestically, or split, if international competition is a priority. The minimum senior age was increased to protect minors from exploitation, and seeing very young teen girls skating with men approaching or in their early twenties makes me feel uncomfortable about the dynamics of that pair.

Yes, it is important for teenagers to interact with older people, and no, they shouldn't be wrapped in cotton wool while adults wring their hands and cry But what about the children? At the same time, a young teenager, regardless of sex, has a brain with a more developed limbic system, and which is more responsive to serotonin and dopamine - their decisions are more likely to be impacted by their emotions, their brains are sufficiently vulnerable to stress that experiences at this period of their lives can shape their long-term mental stress responses and mental health, and they assess risk differently from people at the end of adolescence. As adults, we have the responsibility of advocating for the safety of teenagers, and that can mean prioritising the well-being of a young person over potential pressure from an older partner who wants to compete.

(True about the riding. Everyone said it was because the riders don't know the horses, but those athletes are indeed often simply awful riders. Anyway it was terrible to watch and apart from the final scandal there were many occasions when I was so upset, so really happy about the change.)

 

[skatedreamer]

just wondering what you think of the fact that the existing couple knew, before the new rule, that they would sit out one year for sure. The age gap between them was always going to be problematic... Of course, the new rule is triggering a lot more conversation because of the 1 year becoming 3 years of sitting out... So, if there were an exception rule, should the ISU still make them sit out one year?

What would piss me off the most, is that a solution would allow these teams, always aware that the age gap was going to be problematic, get a better situation from an exceptional ruling, than what they had willingly signed up for (1 year sitting out)...

It's late... i am trying to be clear and I am ESL.. so forgive me if I don't make perfect sense

Fair point; I didn’t know that the couple was aware this would happen.

Also, I never had even the tiniest clue that you were ESL! Your posts are always clear and well-reasoned.

 

[surimi]

Fair point; I didn’t know that the couple was aware this would happen.

Also, I never had even the tiniest clue that you were ESL! Your posts are always clear and well-reasoned.

I wonder how Baram/Tioumentsev were supposed to be aware. I see in their thread that they teamed up in the spring of 2021. The age was raised more than a year later. Perhaps those more knowledgeable will enlighten me how this pair supposedly knew in advance when, and if, the change would be greenlighted, even if it had been discussed for quite a while.
1 year of waiting out is nothing out of the ordinary, it happens for country switches as well, or for difficult injuries. 3 years... in a skater's words, 'The competitive life of a skater is short'. That is almost one full Olympic cycle, and most skaters stay around for just two.

That said, I'm completely lost in all the age info, like if they'd have to wait for just one year had the age change not happened, or not at all.

 

[ladyjane]

I think they did know that they would have to wait one year. The age gap was big, and there were age rules before. Nothing out of the ordinary for that.

 

[RUKen]

I wonder how Baram/Tioumentsev were supposed to be aware. I see in their thread that they teamed up in the spring of 2021. The age was raised more than a year later. Perhaps those more knowledgeable will enlighten me how this pair supposedly knew in advance when, and if, the change would be greenlighted, even if it had been discussed for quite a while.
1 year of waiting out is nothing out of the ordinary, it happens for country switches as well, or for difficult injuries. 3 years... in a skater's words, 'The competitive life of a skater is short'. That is almost one full Olympic cycle, and most skaters stay around for just two.

That said, I'm completely lost in all the age info, like if they'd have to wait for just one year had the age change not happened, or not at all.

They had been aware that they would not be able to compete next season under the old rules, because Tioumentsev will have aged out of juniors and Baram would still not have been eligible for seniors. This situation would have existed for only one year, under the old rules. Someone had suggested that they be allowed to continue competing the next few years (including 2023-24) as juniors, which would be an improvement on their situation under the old rules, as well as the new.

 

[surimi]

They had been aware that they would not be able to compete next season under the old rules, because Tioumentsev will have aged out of juniors and Baram would still not have been eligible for seniors. This situation would have existed for only one year, under the old rules. Someone had suggested that they be allowed to continue competing the next few years (including 2023-24) as juniors, which would be an improvement on their situation under the old rules, as well as the new.

Thank you for the clarification!

Based on that, I support the 3 pairs formed before the age change waiting for one year, like they could expect they would, then joining one of the categories; seniors would now make more sense to me. They're the last remnants of the pre-age-change system, and forcing them to split or go domestic for 3 seasons sounds like a worse solution to me than having three under-17 girls in seniors one last time in 24/25 season. If an eye is kept on their well-being, I'm not sure how any harm could come out of that. But ISU should have considered this before the age change, not after.

 

[moonvine]

OMG They are not having sex or anything, just skating. Do you want every male pair athlete to get injured and the pair discipline to die off because no young team is gonna try it?

They don’t care. They see it as protecting skaters. Who is going to protect them when they’re skating with boys not big or strong enough to lift them?

 

[icewhite]

They don’t care. They see it as protecting skaters. Who is going to protect them when they’re skating with boys not big or strong enough to lift them?

There should simply be elements that can replace such lifts.

 

[moonvine]

just wondering what you think of the fact that the existing couple knew, before the new rule, that they would sit out one year for sure. The age gap between them was always going to be problematic... Of course, the new rule is triggering a lot more conversation because of the 1 year becoming 3 years of sitting out... So, if there were an exception rule, should the ISU still make them sit out one year?

What would piss me off the most, is that a solution would allow these teams, always aware that the age gap was going to be problematic, get a better situation from an exceptional ruling, than what they had willingly signed up for (1 year sitting out)...

It's late... i am trying to be clear and I am ESL.. so forgive me if I don't make perfect sense

OMG. I would never have guessed. Your English is fantastic. Like native speaker perfect.

There should simply be elements that can replace such lifts.

Lifts, throws, death spirals all require strength. The only things I can think of that don’t are SBS spins and jumps.
I’ve seen pairs at a lower level (I’m not sure what level it was because I was watching an NQS event) and I noticed that the boys lifted the girls up to their shoulders and the girls kind of sat on their shoulders. But by juniors they should be doing lifts. Not wait for seniors to start to do pairs elements.

 

[4everchan]

Fair point; I didn’t know that the couple was aware this would happen.

Also, I never had even the tiniest clue that you were ESL! Your posts are always clear and well-reasoned.

I use the "edit post" function often ! Thanks !
Thanks to @moonvine as well

 

[NanaPat]

I wonder how Baram/Tioumentsev were supposed to be aware. I see in their thread that they teamed up in the spring of 2021. The age was raised more than a year later. Perhaps those more knowledgeable will enlighten me how this pair supposedly knew in advance when, and if, the change would be greenlighted, even if it had been discussed for quite a while.

The fact that it had been discussed for quite a while might have given them or their coaches a warning. Of course, they paired up before the 2022 Olympics and the Valieva scandal, which I think tipped the scales toward the ISU finally acting.

I was surprised that the ISU went for a 2-year age change, and phased it in in such an awkward way. I really thought people were proposing a 2-year age change with the hopes of getting 1 year. If they were going to do 2-years, why not phase it in over a longer period, so the same skaters wouldn't be affected two years in a row?

Maybe the second phase of the age change could be postponed for one year for pairs/dance (or maybe just pairs), so that duos under discussion would have to sit out not 1 year, as planned, or 3 years, as under the new rules, but could go senior after sitting out 2 years. Similarly, teams that thought they would just be able to make the junior/senior switch would have to sit out 1 year.

 

[el henry]

They don’t care. They see it as protecting skaters. Who is going to protect them when they’re skating with boys not big or strong enough to lift them?

Please. I was the one to whom this poster was responding.

How to protect them? Don't do the lifts. Don't do any skills beyond your age bracket or your skill set. Have rules where pairs like Ashley and Timothy can flourish, instead of (just) tiny girl and big strong guy.

I'm sorry if this affects Timmy and Ellie, but not really. They actually *knew* about the age rules when they teamed up. (and I don't know if it affects them, I don't know how old Ellie is). It's a good rule and it should be applied evenly.

 

[Amei]

The fact that it had been discussed for quite a while might have given them or their coaches a warning. Of course, they paired up before the 2022 Olympics and the Valieva scandal, which I think tipped the scales toward the ISU finally acting.

I was surprised that the ISU went for a 2-year age change, and phased it in in such an awkward way. I really thought people were proposing a 2-year age change with the hopes of getting 1 year. If they were going to do 2-years, why not phase it in over a longer period, so the same skaters wouldn't be affected two years in a row?

Maybe the second phase of the age change could be postponed for one year for pairs/dance (or maybe just pairs), so that duos under discussion would have to sit out not 1 year, as planned, or 3 years, as under the new rules, but could go senior after sitting out 2 years. Similarly, teams that thought they would just be able to make the junior/senior switch would have to sit out 1 year.

Incremental increasing the age was necessary to avoid causing someone that was age-eligible last year for seniors were forced to move back down to juniors (imo the argument used for raising the age limit left them without an option to grandfather those skaters into seniors). But they should have started the increase immediately to 16 years old this season, then 17 next year.

 

[NanaPat]

Incremental increasing the age was necessary to avoid causing someone that was age-eligible last year for seniors were forced to move back down to juniors (imo the argument used for raising the age limit left them without an option to grandfather those skaters into seniors). But they should have started the increase immediately to 16 years old this season, then 17 next year.

I didn't mean for them to raise it 2 years in one go; that's a bad idea, as you pointed out. What I was suggesting is that there should have been more than one year between the two increases.

I also agree with you that they could/should have had the first increase sooner. That way they could have 2 years between the increases and still be finished at the same time as the current schedule.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

They don’t care. They see it as protecting skaters. Who is going to protect them when they’re skating with boys not big or strong enough to lift them?

Over in the any-gender pairs thread we've established that girls can lift each other (synchro or dance lifts at least), so the late-puberty upper body strength that boys get isn't the be-all-end-all of lifting ability. And those on-the-shoulder lifts you saw from the lower level pair boys are legitimate pair lifts. They are following a natural progression, there's nothing detrimental to their long-term development if they aren't doing overhead lifts as young teens. They'll get there eventually when the time is right.

I would like to see senior pairs strive for the highest technical difficulty. But you don't have to start early with those big elements to get there. They way I see it, having similar-age pairs doing elements safely within their ability (e.g. lower-level lifts/death spirals, double throws or twists) means less risk of injury, not more. It gives more time for the younger boys more time to develop all-rounded pairs basics at the junior ranks, for the younger girls to adjust to puberty (which usually happens earlier for them and affects their jumping ability more), and for both to work on their individual skating skills (especially SBS jumps, which have been noticeably weak this past quadrennial).

As for existing pairs who formed before the age change - I like watching them, but the ISU has to maintain some vestige of impartiality and bending the rules for a few top (mostly US) pairs would just give ammunition to those arguing that the age limit targeted Russian women specifically. If they can come up with a compromise to avoid hypocrisy without making those teams political sacrifices, then kudos to them.

 

[Amei]

I didn't mean for them to raise it 2 years in one go; that's a bad idea, as you pointed out. What I was suggesting is that there should have been more than one year between the two increases.

I also agree with you that they could/should have had the first increase sooner. That way they could have 2 years between the increases and still be finished at the same time as the current schedule.

Well I think hesitating to raise it wasn't a very good option similar to not grandfathering in skaters previously eligible had they increased it immediately by 2 years. The argument to increase the age limit was largely about mental health of athletes, it really screws up your argument that its to protect an athlete but then do the delays either like they have done or like you are suggesting of raise it by 1 year then wait a season to raise or another year.

 

[surimi]

Does anyone know when Kam/O'Shea and Murakami/Moriguchi paired up? I can't find it in their fanfests.

 

[NanaPat]

Does anyone know when Kam/O'Shea and Murakami/Moriguchi paired up? I can't find it in their fanfests.

Earliest reference to Kam/O'Shea I could find was a post on Sept 22 that they were skating in a show together. Confirmation of their partnership was posted on Oct 30.

I had previously looked it up because I wanted to know how the length of their partnership compared to the length of Pireira/Michaud's partnership. Earliest post I could find about P/M was Sept 2.

At the time of 4CC, P/M were about 5 months into their partnership and K/O about 4 months. That's when I originally looked up both pairs, because they are somewhat comparable (new pair with experienced man, woman relatively new to pairs).

ETA: all dates fall of 2022!